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[BOAI] Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors

From: Stevan Harnad <amsciforum AT gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 09:48:57 -0400


Threading:      • This Message
             [BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from amsciforum AT gmail.com
             [BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from holl AT konkoly.hu
             [BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from fotis AT mail.cern.ch
             [BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk
             [BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk
             [BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from david.prosser AT rluk.ac.uk
             [BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from holl AT konkoly.hu
             [BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk
             [BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from david.prosser AT rluk.ac.uk
             [BOAI] My last post on the Cherubim/Seraphim issue (promise!) from harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk
             [BOAI] Re: [GOAL] My last post on the Cherubim/Seraphim issue (promise!) from brentier AT ulg.ac.be
             [BOAI] Re: [GOAL] Re: My last post on the Cherubim/Seraphim issue (promise!) from mbeisen AT gmail.com
             [BOAI] Re: [GOAL] Re: My last post on the Cherubim/Seraphim issue (promise!) from brentier AT ulg.ac.be

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*Alicia Wise*  AT *wisealic*
<https://twitter.com/wisealic>20h<https://twitter.com/wisealic/status/32928=
7890641252352>

 AT *AmSciForum* <https://twitter.com/AmSciForum> Stevan - Elsevier's
#*oa*<https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&src=3Dhash>agreement with 
RCUK,
including gold & green options, is described here:
http://www.elsevier.com/about/publishi
ng-guidelines/policies/funding-body-agreements/research-councils-uk
=85<http://t.co/s8faOyHfEE>


*Stevan Harnad*  AT *AmSciForum*
<https://twitter.com/AmSciForum>8h<https://twitter.com/AmSciForum/status/32=
9457762482397185>

 AT *wisealic* <https://twitter.com/wisealic> Simple Question: Is/isn't
Elsevier-like Springer-still Green on immediate, unembargoed
#*oa*<https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&src=3Dhash>self-archiving?
http://j.mp/11B5gcg  <http://t.co/Jd0DTucqng>


*Alicia Wise*  AT *wisealic*
<https://twitter.com/wisealic>19m<https://twitter.com/wisealic/status/32958=
7843716509696>

 AT *AmSciForum* <https://twitter.com/AmSciForum> yes, Elsevier endorses
immediate self-archiving of accepted final drafts free for all on the web
immediately upon acceptance.


*Stevan Harnad*  AT *AmSciForum*
<https://twitter.com/AmSciForum>3m<https://twitter.com/AmSciForum/status/32=
9591992843640833>

 AT *wisealic* <https://twitter.com/wisealic> Thanks Alicia. Then 
Elsevier
remains on Side of the Angels & I will continue to attest to that!
#*oa*<https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&src=3Dhash>
#*openaccess* 
<https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23openaccess&src=3Dhash>
#*rcuk*<https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23rcuk&src=3Dhash>
#*finchreport* 
<https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23finchreport&src=3Dhash>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"" 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&=
#39;Helvetica 
Neue&#39;,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:18px;ba=
ckground-color:rgb(246,246,246)"><a class=3D"" 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/=
wisealic" 
style=3D"color:rgb(153,153,153);text-decoration:none"><strong 
cla=
ss=3D"" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)">Alicia 
Wise</strong>=A0<span class=3D=
"" style=3D"font-size:12px;direction:ltr"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration:none;=
color:rgb(187,187,187)"> AT 
</s><b>wisealic</b></span></a><small 
class=3D"" st=
yle=3D"font-size:12px;color:rgb(187,187,187);float:right;margin-top:1px"><a=
 href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic/status/329287890641252352" 
class=3D""=
 title=3D"12:35 PM - 30 Apr 13" 
style=3D"color:rgb(153,153,153);text-decora=
tion:none">20h</a></small></div>
<p class=3D"" 
style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word;white-space:pre-wrap=
;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica 
Neue&#39;,Arial,sans-serif;=
font-size:14px;line-height:18px;background-color:rgb(246,246,246)"><a href=
=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum" class=3D"" 
dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color:r=
gb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:=
rgb(128,226,147)"> AT </s><b>AmSciForum</b></a> 
Stevan - Elsevier&#39;s <a hre=
f=3D"https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&amp;src=3Dhash" 
class=3D"" dir=3D=
"ltr" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none"><s 
style=3D"text-=
decoration:none;color:rgb(128,226,147)">#</s><b>oa</b></a> agreement with R=
CUK, including gold &amp; green options, is described here: <a 
href=3D"http=
://t.co/s8faOyHfEE" class=3D"" target=3D"_blank" 
title=3D"http://www.elsevi=
er.com/about/publishing-guidelines/policies/funding-body-agreements/researc=
h-councils-uk" dir=3D"ltr" rel=3D"nofollow" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);t=
ext-decoration:none"><span class=3D"" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-de=
coration:none;font-size:0px;line-height:0">http://www.</span><span class=3D=
"" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none">elsevier.com/about/p=
ublishi</span><span class=3D"" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoratio=
n:none;font-size:0px;line-height:0">ng-guidelines/policies/funding-body-agr=
eements/research-councils-uk</span><span class=3D"" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,2=
07,76);text-decoration:none"><span class=3D"" 
style=3D"font-size:0px;line-h=
eight:0">=A0</span>=85</span></a></p>
<p class=3D"" 
style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word;white-space:pre-wrap=
;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica 
Neue&#39;,Arial,sans-serif;=
font-size:14px;line-height:18px;background-color:rgb(246,246,246)"><br></p>
<p class=3D"" 
style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word;white-space:pre-wrap=
;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica 
Neue&#39;,Arial,sans-serif;=
font-size:14px;line-height:18px;background-color:rgb(246,246,246)"></p><div=
 class=3D"" style=3D"white-space:normal">
<a class=3D"" href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum" 
style=3D"color:rgb(15=
3,153,153);text-decoration:none"><strong class=3D"" 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,5=
1,51)">Stevan Harnad</strong>=A0<span class=3D"" 
style=3D"font-size:12px;di=
rection:ltr"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(187,187,187)"> AT 
</s>=
<b>AmSciForum</b></span></a><small 
class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:12px;color=
:rgb(187,187,187);float:right;margin-top:1px"><a 
href=3D"https://twitter.co=
m/AmSciForum/status/329457762482397185" class=3D"" 
title=3D"11:50 PM - 30 A=
pr 13" 
style=3D"color:rgb(153,153,153);text-decoration:none">8h</a></small>=
</div>
<p class=3D"" 
style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><a 
href=3D"https://=
twitter.com/wisealic" class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);=
text-decoration:none"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(128,226,14=
7)"> AT </s><b>wisealic</b></a> Simple 
Question: Is/isn&#39;t Elsevier-like Sp=
ringer-still Green on immediate, unembargoed <a 
href=3D"https://twitter.com=
/search?q=3D%23oa&amp;src=3Dhash" class=3D"" 
dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color:rgb=
(44,207,76);text-decoration:none"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rg=
b(128,226,147)">#</s><b>oa</b></a> 
self-archiving? <a href=3D"http://t.co/J=
d0DTucqng" class=3D"" target=3D"_blank" 
title=3D"http://j.mp/11B5gcg" dir=
=3D"ltr" rel=3D"nofollow" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:non=
e"><span class=3D"" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none;font=
-size:0px;line-height:0">http://</span><span 
class=3D"" style=3D"color:rgb(=
44,207,76);text-decoration:none">j.mp/11B5gcg</span><font 
color=3D"#2ccf4c"=
><span class=3D"" 
style=3D"font-size:0px;line-height:0"></span></font><span=
 class=3D"" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none"><span 
class=
=3D"" 
style=3D"font-size:0px;line-height:0">=A0</span></span></a></p>
<p class=3D"" 
style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><br></p><p class=3D=
"" 
style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word"></p><div 
class=3D"" style=3D"w=
hite-space:normal"><a class=3D"" 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(153,153,153);text-decoration:none"><strong 
class=3D"" style=
=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)">Alicia Wise</strong>=A0<span 
class=3D"" style=3D"f=
ont-size:12px;direction:ltr"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(187=
,187,187)"> AT 
</s><b>wisealic</b></span></a><small 
class=3D"" style=3D"font-s=
ize:12px;color:rgb(187,187,187);float:right;margin-top:1px"><a 
href=3D"http=
s://twitter.com/wisealic/status/329587843716509696" class=3D"" 
title=3D"8:2=
7 AM - 1 May 13" 
style=3D"color:rgb(153,153,153);text-decoration:none">19m<=
/a></small></div>
<p class=3D"" 
style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><a 
href=3D"https://=
twitter.com/AmSciForum" class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76=
);text-decoration:none"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(128,226,=
147)"> AT </s><b>AmSciForum</b></a> yes, 
Elsevier endorses immediate self-arch=
iving of accepted final drafts free for all on the web immediately upon acc=
eptance.</p>
<p class=3D"" 
style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><br></p><p class=3D=
"" 
style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word"></p><div 
class=3D"" style=3D"w=
hite-space:normal;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><div 
class=3D""><a cla=
ss=3D"" href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum" 
style=3D"color:rgb(153,153,=
153);text-decoration:none"><strong class=3D"" 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)"=
>Stevan Harnad</strong>=A0<span class=3D"" 
style=3D"font-size:12px;directio=
n:ltr"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(187,187,187)"> AT 
</s><b>AmS=
ciForum</b></span></a><small class=3D"" 
style=3D"font-size:12px;color:rgb(1=
87,187,187);float:right;margin-top:1px"><a 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSc=
iForum/status/329591992843640833" class=3D"" title=3D"8:43 
AM - 1 May 13" s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(153,153,153);text-decoration:none">3m</a></small></div>
<p class=3D"" 
style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word;white-space:pre-wrap=
"><a href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic" 
class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"=
color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration:none=
;color:rgb(128,226,147)"> AT 
</s><b>wisealic</b></a> Thanks Alicia. Then Elsev=
ier remains on Side of the Angels &amp; I will continue to attest to that! 
=
<a 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&amp;src=3Dhash" 
class=3D"" =
dir=3D"ltr" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none"><s 
style=3D=
"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(128,226,147)">#</s><b>oa</b></a> <a href=3D=
"https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23openaccess&amp;src=3Dhash" 
class=3D"" di=
r=3D"ltr" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none"><s 
style=3D"t=
ext-decoration:none;color:rgb(128,226,147)">#</s><b>openaccess</b></a> <a h=
ref=3D"https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23rcuk&amp;src=3Dhash" 
class=3D"" di=
r=3D"ltr" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none"><s 
style=3D"t=
ext-decoration:none;color:rgb(128,226,147)">#</s><b>rcuk</b></a> <a href=3D=
"https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23finchreport&amp;src=3Dhash" 
class=3D"" d=
ir=3D"ltr" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none"><s 
style=3D"=
text-decoration:none;color:rgb(128,226,147)">#</s><b>finchreport</b></a></p=
>
</div><p></p><p></p><p></p></div>

--047d7b6043c81d35cd04dba8618b--

        
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[BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors

From: Stevan Harnad <amsciforum AT gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 20:24:46 -0400


Threading: [BOAI] Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message

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On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:10 PM, BISSET J. <james.bisset AT durham.ac.uk> 
wrote=
:


>  From our understanding of Elsevier policy this is not the case in two
> instances:
>
>  1) if the institution requires deposit in their institutional repository
> 2) if the funder requires open access.
>

Dear James,

Elsevier rights agreements state that authors retains the right to make
their final drafts OA immediately upon publication: no embargo.

I will answer your more detailed questions below, but let me already give
you a simple general answer from which all the specific ones can be deduced=
.

If a contract says *you have the right to do X*, then it cannot go on to
stipulate that you only have the "*right to exercise"* your right to 
do X
if you are not required to exercise it. That is empty
double-talk,<http://www.google.ca/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&q=3Dharnad%20OR%20Ha=
rnad%20OR%20archivangelism+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&ie=3DUTF-=
8&tbm=3Dblg&tbs=3Dqdr:m&num=3D100&c2coff=3D1&safe=3Dactive#q=3Delsevier+dou=
ble-talk+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&lr=3D&c2coff=3D1&safe=3Dact=
ive&hl=3Den&tbm=3Dblg&tbas=3D0&source=3Dlnt&sa=3DX&ei=3DVpiBUeBI08fSAc-pgaA=
M&ved=3D0CBsQpwUoAA&bav=3Don.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=3Dbv.45921128,d.dmQ&fp=3D1=
dc003e2610cd254&biw=3D1181&bih=3D708>and
can and should be completely ignored as empty. A right is a right; you
either have it or you don't.

Moreover, Elsevier authors do not need Elsevier's permission to
*deposit*in their IRs any more than they need Elsevier's permission to
go to the WC!

The only thing at issue is *the right to make the deposit immediately OA
(i.e., free online)*. And Elsevier (like Springer, and about 60% of all
publishers) state that the author retains the right to make the final draft
OA immediately upon publication: no OA embargo.

So all authors with any sense should go ahead and exercise that formally
endorsed right that they retain!

I have an email from Elsevier today confirming that in either of the two
> cases above, immediate deposit is permitted but open access is not
> permitted until [after] an embargo period...
>

Elsevier is just playing on words here. As I said, the right to
*deposit*is not at issue. Elsevier does not have any say over where I
put my final
draft.

The only right at issue is *the right to make the deposit immediately OA
(i.e., free online)*.

Additionally, Durham has reissued its mandate for self-archiving, including
> a requirement that only those deposited (not necessarily open access) can
> be used for consideration in promotion or probation (the 'how' this will
> work us still being looked at - So this has not yet been registered
> anywhere).
>

Bravo on adopting the optimal institutional OA mandate. Soon we can hope
that the Durham mandate will be reinforced by the very same mandate from
HEFCE/REF 
<http://www.hefce.ac.uk/whatwedo/rsrch/rinfrastruct/openaccess/>:
only articles whose final drafts were deposited in the author's
institutional repository immediately upon acceptance for publication will
be eligible for submission to the next REF (2020).

Institutional and HEFCE immediate-deposit mandates can then mutually
reinforce one another, and institutions will be able to devise a simple
mechanism for monitoring and verifying
compliance<http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/1004-Harnad-Fo=
llow-Up-Comments-to-BIS-Select-Committee-on-Open-Access.html>
.


> Because we now mandate deposit, Elsevier have indicated we cannot make an=
y
> publications open access until we sign an agreement with them - which
> includes restricting access from immediate upon publication (as it was
> without a mandate) to the embargo periods mentioned above.
>

This is very interesting: Have you asked yourself *why* Elsevier is asking
for a second agreement? Isn't the author's signed agreement enough, if it
is really sufficient to accord him a right yet prevent him from exercising
that right?

Well obviously not, because of the double-talk I just mentioned. In an
agreement with the clause

*Clause C1:* "*You retain the right to do X*"


followed by the clause

*Clause C2: *"*but you may not "exercise your right" to do X if 
you are
required to do X*"


you are sanctioning a contradiction. Logically speaking (and contracts must
obey logic as surely as they must obey the law), this is pretty much the
same as simply saying:

*Clause C1:* "*You may do X*"


and

*Clause C2: *"*You may not do X*."


With a logical contradiction, you can pretty much take your choice and do
whatever you like, because anything (and the opposite of anything) follows
from a contradiction.

A good choice would be to read sequentially, follow Clause 1, and simply
ignore Clause 2, which just says the opposite. If challenged, cite clause 1=
.

And this is the real reason that Elsevier is not comfortable with relying
on its signed author rights agreement with its authors as grounds for
restraining them form doing what the retain the right to do if they are
required to do it. So they instead try to get a signature to yet another
agreement, from yet another party -- the university -- a further agreement
tjat would have the (failed) intended effect of the author rights
agreement: *The institution must sign that it may not require the author to
exercise his right to provide immediate OA.*

Solution? Simple: The university should not sign!

If Elsevier really thinks its author agreement has already seen to it that
mandated authors may not provide immediate OA if required by his
university, then there is no call for the university to sign a thing.

Of course, this is not quite the way Elsevier goes about trying to get the
university to sign: It proposes a contingency, in confidential pricing
negotiations, between the subscription deal it offers the university, and
whether or not they require immediate OA.

This would be unethical if it weren't so ludicrous.

Of course the university should not sign away its right to mandate
immediate-deposit because of a subscription-deal contingency.

But the solution is even simpler than that. Not only should the university
not sign any agreement with Elsevier over what it may or may not require
its researchers do, but the university should not worry too much about
embargoes; it should simply implement the "Almost OA" 
email-eprint-request
Button<http://www.google.ca/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&q=3Dharnad%20OR%20Harnad%2=
0OR%20archivangelism+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&ie=3DUTF-8&tbm=
=3Dblg&tbs=3Dqdr:m&num=3D100&c2coff=3D1&safe=3Dactive#q=3DButton+blogurl:ht=
tp://openaccess.eprints.org/&hl=3Den&lr=3D&c2coff=3D1&safe=3Dactive&tbm=3Db=
lg&tbas=3D0&source=3Dlnt&sa=3DX&ei=3DHnU5UcDCFIyq0AGWhIHQAw&ved=3D0CBwQpwUo=
AA&fp=3D1&biw=3D1288&bih=3D758&bav=3Don.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&cad=3Db&sei=3D5KGBU=
b2GD6Pm0gGa24HoDw>
.

That way not only will the university's immediate-deposit mandate (with the
help of the HEFCE/REF immediate-deposit mandate) ensure that all final
drafts are immediately deposited and that at least 60% of those
immediate-deposits (including all Elsevier deposits!) will be made
immediately OA. But, in addition, even the those immediate-deposits that
are from from the 40% of journals -- which (unlike Springer and Elsevier
and APS and IOP and all the other publishers who are on the Side if the
angels) try to embargo OA -- will be made "Almost OA", via the 
Button.

And with the help of the eprint Button, the ID/OA mandate will go on to
make OA embargoes as ineffectual as Clause 2, once the immediate-deposit
mandate becomes universal.

And a word about "systematicity": Systematically duplicating the 
contents
of a journal would mean duplicating all of its contents. But a single
institution just provides a tiny (and unsystematic) fraction of any
journal's contents.

Globally mandated OA will be another story: But Elsevier cannot hope to
persuade all universities worldwide to desist from mandating OA! (And it is
noteworthy that Elsevier is not even trying to get research funders to sign
"agreements" not mandate OA, or to extend OA embargoes; Elsevier's 
strategy
there is lobbying, since they don't have the subscription discount carrot
with which it lures naive universities into signing over their mandating
rights in exchange for a better subscription Big-Deal.

However, if Alicia is indicating this new stance is a move away from that
> which I was told by Elsevier earlier today, and is still less than clearl=
y
> indicated on their web pages (which indicate an author can comply by
> self-archiving, but then go on to list embargo periods which do not meet
> RCUK policy) then that is great news.
>

Alicia is just re-stating the Clause 1. Take her at her word.

Best wishes,

Stevan



> On 1 May 2013, at 14:49, "Stevan Harnad" <amsciforum AT 
gmail.com> wrote:
>
>    *Alicia Wise*  AT *wisealic* 
<https://twitter.com/wisealic>20h<https://tw=
itter.com/wisealic/status/329287890641252352>
>
>  AT *AmSciForum* <https://twitter.com/AmSciForum> Stevan - 
Elsevier's #*oa*<=
https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&src=3Dhash>agreement with RCUK, 
includ=
ing gold & green options, is described here:http://www.
> elsevier.com/about/publishi
> ng-guidelines/policies/funding-body-agreements/research-councils-uk 
=85<h=
ttp://t.co/s8faOyHfEE>
>
>  *Stevan Harnad*  AT *AmSciForum* 
<https://twitter.com/AmSciForum>8h<https:/=
/twitter.com/AmSciForum/status/329457762482397185>
>
>  AT *wisealic* <https://twitter.com/wisealic> Simple Question: 
Is/isn't
> Elsevier-like Springer-still Green on immediate, unembargoed 
#*oa*<https:=
//twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&src=3Dhash>self-archiving?
>  http://j.mp/11B5gcg  <http://t.co/Jd0DTucqng>
>
>
>  *Alicia Wise*  AT *wisealic* 
<https://twitter.com/wisealic>19m<https://twit=
ter.com/wisealic/status/329587843716509696>
>
>  AT *AmSciForum* <https://twitter.com/AmSciForum> *yes, Elsevier 
endorses
> immediate self-archiving of accepted final drafts free for all on the web
> immediately upon acceptance.*
>
>
>   *Stevan Harnad*  AT *AmSciForum* 
<https://twitter.com/AmSciForum>3m<https:=
//twitter.com/AmSciForum/status/329591992843640833>
>
>  AT *wisealic* <https://twitter.com/wisealic> Thanks Alicia. Then 
Elsevier
> remains on Side of the Angels & I will continue to attest to that! 
<https=
://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&src=3Dhash>
>
>

--001a11c2794cff8a0f04dbb14244
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">On 
Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:10 PM,=
 BISSET J. <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a 
href=3D"mailto:james.bisset AT durham.ac.u=
k" target=3D"_blank">james.bisset AT 
durham.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" 
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div 
bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div><div>
</div>
<div>From our understanding of Elsevier policy this is not the case in 
two =
instances:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1) if the institution requires deposit in their institutional 
reposito=
ry</div>
<div>2) if the funder requires open 
access.</div></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div style>Dear James,</div><div 
style><br></div><div style>E=
lsevier rights agreements state that authors retains the right to make thei=
r final drafts OA immediately upon publication: no embargo.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>I will answer your more 
detailed questions =
below, but let me already give you a simple general answer from which all t=
he specific ones can be deduced.</div><div 
style><br></div><div style>If a =
contract says <i>you have=A0the right to do X</i>, then it cannot 
go on to =
stipulate that you only have the &quot;<i>right to 
exercise&quot;</i>=A0you=
r right to do X if you are not required to exercise it. That is <a 
href=3D"=
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=3Den&amp;lr=3D&amp;q=3Dharnad%20OR%20Harnad%=
20OR%20archivangelism+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&amp;ie=3DUTF-8=
&amp;tbm=3Dblg&amp;tbs=3Dqdr:m&amp;num=3D100&amp;c2coff=3D1&amp;safe=3Dacti=
ve#q=3Delsevier+double-talk+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&amp;lr=
=3D&amp;c2coff=3D1&amp;safe=3Dactive&amp;hl=3Den&amp;tbm=3Dblg&amp;tbas=3D0=
&amp;source=3Dlnt&amp;sa=3DX&amp;ei=3DVpiBUeBI08fSAc-pgaAM&amp;ved=3D0CBsQp=
wUoAA&amp;bav=3Don.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&amp;bvm=3Dbv.45921128,d.dmQ&amp;fp=3D1dc=
003e2610cd254&amp;biw=3D1181&amp;bih=3D708">empty 
double-talk,</a> and=A0ca=
n and should be completely ignored as empty.=A0A right is a right; you eith=
er have it or you don&#39;t.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Moreover, Elsevier 
authors do not need Else=
vier&#39;s permission to <i>deposit</i> in their IRs any more 
than they nee=
d Elsevier&#39;s permission to go to the WC!=A0</div><div 
style><br></div>
<div style>The only thing at issue is <i>the right to make the 
deposit imme=
diately OA (i.e., free online)</i>. And Elsevier (like Springer, and 
about =
60% of all publishers) state that the author retains the right to make the =
final draft OA immediately upon publication: no OA embargo.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>So all authors with any 
sense should go ahe=
ad and exercise that formally endorsed right that they 
retain!</div><div st=
yle><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" 
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
<div>I have an email from Elsevier today confirming that in either of the 
t=
wo cases above, immediate deposit is permitted but open access is not permi=
tted until [after] an embargo 
period...<br></div></div></blockquote><div>
<br></div><div style>Elsevier is just playing on words here. 
As I said, the=
 right to <i>deposit</i> is not at issue. Elsevier does not have 
any say ov=
er where I put my final draft.=A0</div><div 
style><br></div><div style>The =
only right at issue is=A0<i>the right to make the deposit immediately OA 
(i=
.e., free online)</i>.<br>
</div><div style><br></div><blockquote 
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204=
);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div 
bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div><=
/div>

<div>Additionally, Durham has reissued its mandate for self-archiving, 
incl=
uding a requirement that only those deposited (not necessarily open access)=
 can be used for consideration in promotion or probation (the 
&#39;how&#39;=
 this will work us still being looked at
 - So this has not yet been registered 
anywhere).<br></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div style>Bravo on adopting the 
optimal institutional OA=
 mandate. Soon we can hope that the Durham mandate will be reinforced by th=
e very same mandate from <a 
href=3D"http://www.hefce.ac.uk/whatwedo/rsrch/r=
infrastruct/openaccess/">HEFCE/REF</a>: only articles whose final 
drafts we=
re deposited in the author&#39;s institutional repository immediately upon 
=
acceptance for publication will be eligible for submission to the next REF =
(2020).</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Institutional and HEFCE 
immediate-deposit m=
andates can then mutually reinforce one another, and institutions will be a=
ble to devise a <a 
href=3D"http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archive=
s/1004-Harnad-Follow-Up-Comments-to-BIS-Select-Committee-on-Open-Access.htm=
l">simple mechanism for monitoring and verifying 
compliance</a>.</div>
<div style>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" 
style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);borde=
r-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div 
bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div></div>
<div>Because we now mandate deposit, Elsevier have indicated we cannot 
make=
 any publications open access until we sign an agreement with them - which =
includes restricting access from immediate upon publication (as it was with=
out a mandate) to the embargo periods
 mentioned 
above.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Thi=
s is very interesting: Have you asked yourself <i>why</i> Elsevier 
is askin=
g for a second agreement? Isn&#39;t the author&#39;s signed agreement 
enoug=
h, if it is really sufficient to accord him a right yet prevent him from ex=
ercising that right?</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Well obviously not, 
because of the double-t=
alk I just mentioned. In an agreement with the clause</div><div 
style><br><=
/div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 
40px;border:none;p=
adding:0px">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra" style><div 
class=3D"gmail_quote" style><div styl=
e><b>Clause C1:</b>=A0&quot;<i>You retain the right to 
do X</i>&quot;=A0</d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div 
class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div style>
<br></div><div style>followed by the 
clause=A0</div><div style><br></div></=
div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 
40px;border:none;padding:=
0px"><div class=3D"gmail_extra" style><div 
class=3D"gmail_quote" style><div=
 style>
<b>Clause C2:=A0</b>&quot;<i>but you may not 
&quot;exercise your right&quot=
; to do X if you are required to do 
X</i>&quot;</div></div></div></blockquo=
te><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div 
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div style><br></d=
iv>
<div style>you are sanctioning a contradiction. Logically speaking (and 
con=
tracts must obey logic as surely as they must obey the law), this is pretty=
 much the same as simply saying:</div><div 
style><br></div></div></div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 
40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra" style><div 
class=3D"gmail_quote" style><div style><b>=
Clause C1:</b>=A0&quot;<i>You may do 
X</i>&quot;=A0</div></div></div></bloc=
kquote>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div 
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div style><br></div>=
<div style>and</div><div 
style><br></div></div></div><blockquote 
style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div 
class=3D"gmail_extra" =
style>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote" style><div 
style><b>Clause C2:=A0</b>&quot;<i>Yo=
u may not do 
X</i>.&quot;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"gmail=
_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div 
style><br></div><div style>With a l=
ogical contradiction, you can pretty much take your choice and do whatever =
you like, because anything (and the opposite of anything) follows from a co=
ntradiction.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>A good choice would be 
to read sequentially=
, follow Clause 1, and simply ignore Clause 2, which just says the opposite=
. If challenged, cite clause 1.</div><div 
style><br></div><div style>And th=
is is the real reason that Elsevier is not comfortable with relying on its =
signed author rights agreement with its authors as grounds for restraining =
them form doing what the retain the right to do if they are required to do =
it. So they instead try to get a signature to yet another agreement, from y=
et another party -- the university -- a further agreement tjat would have t=
he (failed) intended effect of the author rights agreement: <i>The 
institut=
ion must sign that it may not require the author to exercise his right to p=
rovide immediate OA.</i></div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Solution? Simple: The 
university should not=
 sign!=A0</div><div style><br></div><div style>If 
Elsevier really thinks it=
s author agreement has already seen to it that mandated authors may not pro=
vide immediate OA if required by his university, then there is no call for =
the university to sign a thing.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Of course, this is not 
quite the way Elsevi=
er goes about trying to get the university to sign: It proposes a contingen=
cy, in confidential pricing negotiations, between the subscription deal it =
offers the university, and whether or not they require immediate 
OA.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>This would be unethical 
if it weren&#39;t s=
o ludicrous.</div><div style><br></div><div 
style>Of course the university =
should not sign away its right to mandate immediate-deposit because of a su=
bscription-deal contingency.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>But the solution is 
even simpler than that.=
 Not only should the university not sign any agreement with Elsevier over w=
hat it may or may not require its researchers do, but the university should=
 not worry too much about embargoes; it should simply implement the 
&quot;A=
lmost OA&quot; <a 
href=3D"http://www.google.ca/search?hl=3Den&amp;lr=3D&amp=
;q=3Dharnad%20OR%20Harnad%20OR%20archivangelism+blogurl:http://openaccess.e=
prints.org/&amp;ie=3DUTF-8&amp;tbm=3Dblg&amp;tbs=3Dqdr:m&amp;num=3D100&amp;=
c2coff=3D1&amp;safe=3Dactive#q=3DButton+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.o=
rg/&amp;hl=3Den&amp;lr=3D&amp;c2coff=3D1&amp;safe=3Dactive&amp;tbm=3Dblg&am=
p;tbas=3D0&amp;source=3Dlnt&amp;sa=3DX&amp;ei=3DHnU5UcDCFIyq0AGWhIHQAw&amp;=
ved=3D0CBwQpwUoAA&amp;fp=3D1&amp;biw=3D1288&amp;bih=3D758&amp;bav=3Don.2,or=
.r_cp.r_qf.&amp;cad=3Db&amp;sei=3D5KGBUb2GD6Pm0gGa24HoDw">email-eprint-requ=
est Button</a>.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>That way not only will 
the university&#39;s=
 immediate-deposit mandate (with the help of the HEFCE/REF immediate-deposi=
t mandate) ensure that all final drafts are immediately deposited and that =
at least 60% of those immediate-deposits (including all Elsevier deposits!)=
 will be made immediately OA. But, in addition, even the those immediate-de=
posits that are from from the 40% of journals -- which (unlike Springer and=
 Elsevier and APS and IOP and all the other publishers who are on the Side =
if the angels) try to embargo OA -- will be made &quot;Almost OA&quot;, 
via=
 the Button.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>And with the help of 
the eprint Button, the=
 ID/OA mandate will go on to make OA embargoes as ineffectual as Clause 2, =
once the immediate-deposit mandate becomes 
universal.<br></div><div style>
<br></div><div style>And a word about 
&quot;systematicity&quot;: Systematic=
ally duplicating the contents of a journal would mean duplicating all of it=
s contents. But a single institution just provides a tiny (and unsystematic=
) fraction of any journal&#39;s contents.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Globally mandated OA 
will be another story:=
 But Elsevier cannot hope to persuade all universities worldwide to desist =
from mandating OA! (And it is noteworthy that Elsevier is not even trying t=
o get research funders to sign &quot;agreements&quot; not mandate OA, 
or to=
 extend OA embargoes; Elsevier&#39;s strategy there is lobbying, since 
they=
 don&#39;t have the subscription discount carrot with which it lures naive 
=
universities into signing over their mandating rights in exchange for a bet=
ter subscription Big-Deal.</div>
<div style><br></div><blockquote 
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);bord=
er-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div 
bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div></div>
<div>However, if Alicia is indicating this new stance is a move away from 
t=
hat which I was told by Elsevier earlier today, and is still less than clea=
rly indicated on their web pages (which indicate an author can comply by se=
lf-archiving, but then go on to
 list embargo periods which do not meet RCUK policy) then that is great new=
s.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Alicia is just re-=
stating the Clause 1. Take her at her word.</div><div 
style><br></div>
<div style>Best wishes,</div><div 
style><br></div><div style>Stevan =A0</di=
v><div><br></div><div>=A0</div><blockquote 
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204=
,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div><div>
On 1 May 2013, at 14:49, &quot;Stevan Harnad&quot; &lt;<a 
href=3D"mailto:am=
sciforum AT gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">amsciforum AT 
gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica 
Neue&#39;,Aria=
l,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:18px;background-color:rgb(246,246,2=
46)">
<a href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic" 
style=3D"color:rgb(153,153,153);te=
xt-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank"><strong 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)"=
>Alicia Wise</strong>=A0<span 
style=3D"font-size:12px;direction:ltr"><s sty=
le=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(187,187,187)"> AT 
</s><b>wisealic</b></sp=
an></a><small 
style=3D"font-size:12px;color:rgb(187,187,187);float:right;ma=
rgin-top:1px"><a 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic/status/32928789064125=
2352" title=3D"12:35 PM - 30 Apr 13" 
style=3D"color:rgb(153,153,153);text-d=
ecoration:none" 
target=3D"_blank">20h</a></small></div>

<p 
style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word;white-space:pre-wrap;color:rgb(=
51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica 
Neue&#39;,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:1=
4px;line-height:18px;background-color:rgb(246,246,246)">
<a href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum" dir=3D"ltr" 
style=3D"color:rgb(4=
4,207,76);text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank"><s 
style=3D"text-decorati=
on:none;color:rgb(128,226,147)"> AT 
</s><b>AmSciForum</b></a> Stevan - Elsevie=
r&#39;s
<a 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&amp;src=3Dhash" 
dir=3D"ltr"=
 style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none" 
target=3D"_blank">
<s 
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(128,226,147)">#</s><b>oa</b></a>=
 agreement with RCUK, including gold &amp; green options, is described 
here=
:<a href=3D"http://t.co/s8faOyHfEE" 
title=3D"http://www.elsevier.com/about/=
publishing-guidelines/policies/funding-body-agreements/research-councils-uk=
" dir=3D"ltr" rel=3D"nofollow" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoratio=
n:none" target=3D"_blank"><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decorati=
on:none;font-size:0px;line-height:0">
http://www.</span><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none"=
>elsevier.com/about/publishi</span><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text=
-decoration:none;font-size:0px;line-height:0">ng-guidelines/policies/fundin=
g-body-agreements/research-councils-uk</span><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,20=
7,76);text-decoration:none"><span 
style=3D"font-size:0px;line-height:0">=A0=
</span>=85</span></a></p>

<p 
style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word;white-space:pre-wrap;color:rgb(=
51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica 
Neue&#39;,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:1=
4px;line-height:18px;background-color:rgb(246,246,246)">
</p>
<div style=3D"white-space:normal"><a 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum=
" style=3D"color:rgb(153,153,153);text-decoration:none" 
target=3D"_blank"><=
strong style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)">Stevan 
Harnad</strong>=A0<span style=
=3D"font-size:12px;direction:ltr"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rg=
b(187,187,187)"> AT 
</s><b>AmSciForum</b></span></a><small 
style=3D"font-size:=
12px;color:rgb(187,187,187);float:right;margin-top:1px"><a 
href=3D"https://=
twitter.com/AmSciForum/status/329457762482397185" title=3D"11:50 PM - 
30 Ap=
r 13" style=3D"color:rgb(153,153,153);text-decoration:none" 
target=3D"_blan=
k">8h</a></small></div>

<p style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><a 
href=3D"https://twitter.com=
/wisealic" dir=3D"ltr" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none" =
target=3D"_blank"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(128,226,147)">=
 AT </s><b>wisealic</b></a> Simple Question:
 Is/isn&#39;t Elsevier-like Springer-still Green on immediate, unembargoed 
=
<a 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&amp;src=3Dhash" 
dir=3D"ltr"=
 style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none" 
target=3D"_blank">
<s 
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(128,226,147)">#</s><b>oa</b></a>=
 self-archiving?
<a href=3D"http://t.co/Jd0DTucqng" 
title=3D"http://j.mp/11B5gcg" dir=3D"ltr=
" rel=3D"nofollow" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none" targ=
et=3D"_blank">=A0<span 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none;f=
ont-size:0px;line-height:0">http://</span><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,7=
6);text-decoration:none">j.mp/11B5gcg</span><font 
color=3D"#2ccf4c"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:0px;line-height:0"></span></font><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(44,207,76);text-decoration:none"><span 
style=3D"font-size:0px;line-height:=
0">=A0</span></span></a></p>

<p style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word"></p>
<div style=3D"white-space:normal"><a 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic" =
style=3D"color:rgb(153,153,153);text-decoration:none" 
target=3D"_blank"><st=
rong style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)">Alicia 
Wise</strong>=A0<span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:12px;direction:ltr"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(187,=
187,187)"> AT 
</s><b>wisealic</b></span></a><small 
style=3D"font-size:12px;col=
or:rgb(187,187,187);float:right;margin-top:1px"><a 
href=3D"https://twitter.=
com/wisealic/status/329587843716509696" title=3D"8:27 AM - 1 May 
13" style=
=3D"color:rgb(153,153,153);text-decoration:none" 
target=3D"_blank">19m</a><=
/small></div>

<p style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><a 
href=3D"https://twitter.com=
/AmSciForum" dir=3D"ltr" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none=
" target=3D"_blank"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(128,226,147)=
"> AT </s><b>AmSciForum</b></a> <b>yes, 
Elsevier
 endorses immediate self-archiving of accepted final drafts free for all on=
 the web immediately upon acceptance.</b></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word"></p>
<div style=3D"white-space:normal">
<div><a href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum" 
style=3D"color:rgb(153,153,=
153);text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank"><strong 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,=
51,51)">Stevan Harnad</strong>=A0<span 
style=3D"font-size:12px;direction:lt=
r"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(187,187,187)"> AT 
</s><b>AmSciFo=
rum</b></span></a><small 
style=3D"font-size:12px;color:rgb(187,187,187);flo=
at:right;margin-top:1px"><a 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum/status/3=
29591992843640833" title=3D"8:43 AM - 1 May 13" 
style=3D"color:rgb(153,153,=
153);text-decoration:none" 
target=3D"_blank">3m</a></small></div>

<p 
style=3D"margin:0px;word-wrap:break-word;white-space:pre-wrap"><a href=
=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic" dir=3D"ltr" 
style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76)=
;text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration:none;c=
olor:rgb(128,226,147)"> AT 
</s><b>wisealic</b></a>
 Thanks Alicia. Then Elsevier remains on Side of the Angels &amp; I will 
co=
ntinue to attest to that!
<a 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&amp;src=3Dhash" 
dir=3D"ltr"=
 style=3D"color:rgb(44,207,76);text-decoration:none" 
target=3D"_blank">
</a></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><br><=
/div></div>

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[BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors

From: "Andras Holl" <holl AT konkoly.hu>
Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 09:17:05 +0200


Threading: [BOAI] Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message


Dear Stevan,

Regardless however right you are, Elsevier's play with words succesfully 
confuses
a large number of authors, who do not deposit because of this.

Andras

On Wed, 1 May 2013 20:24:46 -0400, Stevan Harnad wrote
> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:10 PM, BISSET J. <james.bisset AT 
durham.ac.uk> wrote:
> 
>  
> 
> From our understanding of Elsevier policy this is not the case in two 
instances:
> 
> 1) if the institution requires deposit in their institutional repository
> 2) if the funder requires open access.
> 
> Dear James,
> 
> Elsevier rights agreements state that authors retains the right to make 
their final drafts OA immediately upon publication: no embargo.
> 
> I will answer your more detailed questions below, but let me already give 
you a simple general answer from which all the specific ones can be deduced.
> 
> If a contract says you have the right to do X, then it cannot go on to 
stipulate that you only have the "right to exercise" your right to 
do X if you are not required to exercise it. That is empty double-talk, 
and can and should be completely ignored as empty. A right is a right; you 
either have it or you don't.
> 
> Moreover, Elsevier authors do not need Elsevier's permission to deposit in 
their IRs any more than they need Elsevier's permission to go to the WC! 
> 
> The only thing at issue is the right to make the deposit immediately OA 
(i.e., free online). And Elsevier (like Springer, and about 60% of all 
publishers) state that the author retains the right to make the final draft OA 
immediately upon publication: no OA embargo.
> 
> So all authors with any sense should go ahead and exercise that formally 
endorsed right that they retain!
> 
> 
> 
> I have an email from Elsevier today confirming that in either of the two 
cases above, immediate deposit is permitted but open access is not permitted 
until [after] an embargo period...
> 
> 
> Elsevier is just playing on words here. As I said, the right to deposit is 
not at issue. Elsevier does not have any say over where I put my final draft. 
> 
> The only right at issue is the right to make the deposit immediately OA 
(i.e., free online).
> 
> 
> 
> Additionally, Durham has reissued its mandate for self-archiving, 
including a requirement that only those deposited (not necessarily open access) 
can be used for consideration in promotion or probation (the 'how' this will 
work us still being looked at- So this has not yet been registered anywhere).
> 
> 
> Bravo on adopting the optimal institutional OA mandate. Soon we can hope 
that the Durham mandate will be reinforced by the very same mandate from 
HEFCE/REF: only articles whose final drafts were deposited in the author's 
institutional repository immediately upon acceptance for publication will be 
eligible for submission to the next REF (2020).
> 
> Institutional and HEFCE immediate-deposit mandates can then mutually 
reinforce one another, and institutions will be able to devise a simple 
mechanism for monitoring and verifying compliance.
>  
> 
> Because we now mandate deposit, Elsevier have indicated we cannot make any 
publications open access until we sign an agreement with them - which includes 
restricting access from immediate upon publication (as it was without a 
mandate) to the embargo periodsmentioned above.
> 
> 
> This is very interesting: Have you asked yourself why Elsevier is asking 
for a second agreement? Isn't the author's signed agreement enough, if it is 
really sufficient to accord him a right yet prevent him from exercising that 
right?
> 
> Well obviously not, because of the double-talk I just mentioned. In an 
agreement with the clause
> 
> 
> 
> Clause C1: "You retain the right to do X" 
> 
> followed by the clause 
> 
> 
> 
> Clause C2: "but you may not "exercise your right" to do X 
if you are required to do X"
> 
> you are sanctioning a contradiction. Logically speaking (and contracts 
must obey logic as surely as they must obey the law), this is pretty much the 
same as simply saying:
> 
> 
> 
> Clause C1: "You may do X" 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> Clause C2: "You may not do X."
> 
> With a logical contradiction, you can pretty much take your choice and do 
whatever you like, because anything (and the opposite of anything) follows from 
a contradiction.
> 
> A good choice would be to read sequentially, follow Clause 1, and simply 
ignore Clause 2, which just says the opposite. If challenged, cite clause 1.
> 
> And this is the real reason that Elsevier is not comfortable with relying 
on its signed author rights agreement with its authors as grounds for 
restraining them form doing what the retain the right to do if they are 
required to do it. So they instead try to get a signature to yet another 
agreement, from yet another party -- the university -- a further agreement tjat 
would have the (failed) intended effect of the author rights agreement: The 
institution must sign that it may not require the author to exercise his right 
to provide immediate OA.
> 
> Solution? Simple: The university should not sign! 
> 
> If Elsevier really thinks its author agreement has already seen to it that 
mandated authors may not provide immediate OA if required by his university, 
then there is no call for the university to sign a thing.
> 
> Of course, this is not quite the way Elsevier goes about trying to get the 
university to sign: It proposes a contingency, in confidential pricing 
negotiations, between the subscription deal it offers the university, and 
whether or not they require immediate OA.
> 
> This would be unethical if it weren't so ludicrous.
> 
> Of course the university should not sign away its right to mandate 
immediate-deposit because of a subscription-deal contingency.
> 
> But the solution is even simpler than that. Not only should the university 
not sign any agreement with Elsevier over what it may or may not require its 
researchers do, but the university should not worry too much about embargoes; 
it should simply implement the "Almost OA" email-eprint-request 
Button.
> 
> That way not only will the university's immediate-deposit mandate (with 
the help of the HEFCE/REF immediate-deposit mandate) ensure that all final 
drafts are immediately deposited and that at least 60% of those 
immediate-deposits (including all Elsevier deposits!) will be made immediately 
OA. But, in addition, even the those immediate-deposits that are from from the 
40% of journals -- which (unlike Springer and Elsevier and APS and IOP and all 
the other publishers who are on the Side if the angels) try to embargo OA -- 
will be made "Almost OA", via the Button.
> 
> And with the help of the eprint Button, the ID/OA mandate will go on to 
make OA embargoes as ineffectual as Clause 2, once the immediate-deposit 
mandate becomes universal.
> 
> And a word about "systematicity": Systematically duplicating the 
contents of a journal would mean duplicating all of its contents. But a single 
institution just provides a tiny (and unsystematic) fraction of any journal's 
contents.
> 
> Globally mandated OA will be another story: But Elsevier cannot hope to 
persuade all universities worldwide to desist from mandating OA! (And it is 
noteworthy that Elsevier is not even trying to get research funders to sign 
"agreements" not mandate OA, or to extend OA embargoes; Elsevier's 
strategy there is lobbying, since they don't have the subscription discount 
carrot with which it lures naive universities into signing over their mandating 
rights in exchange for a better subscription Big-Deal.
> 
> 
> 
> However, if Alicia is indicating this new stance is a move away from that 
which I was told by Elsevier earlier today, and is still less than clearly 
indicated on their web pages (which indicate an author can comply by 
self-archiving, but then go on tolist embargo periods which do not meet RCUK 
policy) then that is great news.
> 
> 
> Alicia is just re-stating the Clause 1. Take her at her word.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Stevan  
> 
>  
> 
> On 1 May 2013, at 14:49, "Stevan Harnad" <amsciforum AT 
gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Alicia Wise  AT wisealic20h
>  AT AmSciForum Stevan - Elsevier's#oa agreement with RCUK, including gold 
& green options, is described 
here:http://www.elsevier.com/about/publishing-guidelines/policies/funding-body-agreements/research-councils-uk …
> 
> Stevan Harnad  AT AmSciForum8h
>  AT wisealic Simple Question:Is/isn't Elsevier-like Springer-still Green 
on immediate, unembargoed #oa self-archiving? http://j.mp/11B5gcg 
> 
> Alicia Wise  AT wisealic19m
>  AT AmSciForum yes, Elsevierendorses immediate self-archiving of accepted 
final drafts free for all on the web immediately upon acceptance.
> 
> Stevan Harnad  AT AmSciForum3m
>  AT wisealicThanks Alicia. Then Elsevier remains on Side of the Angels 
& I will continue to attest to that!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Andras Holl / Holl Andras                e-mail: holl AT konkoly.hu 
Konkoly Observatory / MTA CsFK CsI       Tel.: +36 1 3919368 Fax: +36 1 
2754668 
IT manager / Szamitastechn. rendszervez. Mail: H1525 POBox 67, Budapest, 
Hungary 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

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[BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors

From: Fotis Georgatos <fotis AT mail.cern.ch>
Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 10:28:38 +0200


Threading: [BOAI] Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message


Dear Andras,

On May 2, 2013, at 9:17 AM, Andras Holl wrote:
> Regardless however right you are, Elsevier's play with words succesfully 
confuses 
> a large number of authors, who do not deposit because of this. 

It is the role of research institutes and university boards to step
forward and make an emphatic statement about the status quo and,
how their subordinates/affiliates are expected to behave. Taxpayers 
do not have an excuse of confusion when they make their contributions
so, that puts some responsibility on the individual authors, too.

btw. -sorry if the question has been asked again over here-
is there an open ranking list of universities worldwide 
as regards the clarity of their messaging in relation to Open Access?

-- 
Drs./Eng. Fotis Georgatos <Fotis.Georgatos AT uni.lu>
HPC Systems Engineer, LCSB (University of Luxembourg)
L-4362 Esch-sur-Alzette, Campus Belval, avenue des Hauts-Fourneaux 7
Phone:  +352 466644 5609


        
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[BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors

From: Stevan Harnad <harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 07:35:06 -0400


Threading: [BOAI] Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message


On 2013-05-02, at 3:17 AM, Andras Holl <holl AT konkoly.hu> wrote:

> Dear Stevan, 
> 
> Regardless however right you are, Elsevier's play with words succesfully 
confuses 
> a large number of authors, who do not deposit because of this. 

Dear Andras,

You are quite right. But word-play is word-play, and the only way to defeat it 
is to use one's brains. 
That's what authors, their institiutions and their funders need to do, with 
mandates that are clear, 
effective, monitored and verified. 

Elsevier policy allowing immediate, unembargoed self-archiving by authors is 
identical to
Springer's policy, but the way, apart from all the formal FUD. Springer is 
perfectly
straightforward about it. 

So ignore the FUD, deposit immediately, and make the immediate-deposit OA 
immediately.
Leave the FUD for those who are fatuous enough to be taken in by it.

Below is a recent posting I did on this very point on another list.

Best wishes,

Istvan

ELSEVIER VS ACADEMIC SLOW-WITTEDNESS

Elsevier has many very unsavoury practices: It overcharges for subscriptions; 
it tries [and succeeds] to make confidential contingency deals with 
universities, 
linking subscription prices to university OA policy agreements; it lobbies 
against
 OA mandates; and it hedges its policy on Green OA with so much unspeakable
 nonsense that it is hard to sort out the signal from the noise.

Yet the signal is clear for those with eyes to see and wits to filter out FUD: 
Elsevier authors all retain the right to make their refereed final drafts free 
online 
immediately upon acceptance for publication.

For anyone with any common sense, that's all that's needed. Ignore all the
 accompanying double-talk about mandates and "systematicity." It's 
all 
just incoherent formalistic FUD. Deposit your final draft in your institutional 

repository and make it immediately OA and pay no attention to anything else 
Elsevier says about it.

The trouble is, many people still do not have the sense to realize that. 
So they keep solemnly agonizing over absurd details like "You may only 
exercise the right to self-archive that all Elsevier authors retain if you are 
not required to exercise it" -- which makes as  much sense as: "You 
may 
only exercise the right to self-archive that all Elsevier authors retain if you 

do not have a blue-eyed maternal uncle."

Well I'm beginning to think that slow-wittedness deserves to learn its lesson 
the hard way. So let those so inclined keep solemnly agonizing over how 
to "comply" with Elsevier's hedged gibberish. 

(The physicists in Arxiv instantly intuited all of this nearly quarter century 
ago, and computer scientists, with anonymous FTP archives, even earlier. 
The rest of us have only ourselves to blame for our lost quarter-century 
of research access and impact...)

> 
> Andras 
> 
> On Wed, 1 May 2013 20:24:46 -0400, Stevan Harnad wrote 
> > On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:10 PM, BISSET J. <james.bisset AT 
durham.ac.uk> wrote: 
> > 
> >  
> 
> > 
> > From our understanding of Elsevier policy this is not the case in two 
instances: 
> > 
> > 1) if the institution requires deposit in their institutional 
repository 
> > 2) if the funder requires open access.
> 
> > 
> > Dear James, 
> > 
> > Elsevier rights agreements state that authors retains the right to 
make their final drafts OA immediately upon publication: no embargo. 
> > 
> > I will answer your more detailed questions below, but let me already 
give you a simple general answer from which all the specific ones can be 
deduced. 
> > 
> > If a contract says you have the right to do X, then it cannot go on 
to stipulate that you only have the "right to exercise" your right to 
do X if you are not required to exercise it. That is empty double-talk, and can 
and should be completely ignored as empty. A right is a right; you either have 
it or you don't. 
> > 
> > Moreover, Elsevier authors do not need Elsevier's permission to 
deposit in their IRs any more than they need Elsevier's permission to go to the 
WC!  
> > 
> > The only thing at issue is the right to make the deposit immediately 
OA (i.e., free online). And Elsevier (like Springer, and about 60% of all 
publishers) state that the author retains the right to make the final draft OA 
immediately upon publication: no OA embargo. 
> > 
> > So all authors with any sense should go ahead and exercise that 
formally endorsed right that they retain! 
> > 
> >
> 
> > 
> > I have an email from Elsevier today confirming that in either of the 
two cases above, immediate deposit is permitted but open access is not 
permitted until [after] an embargo period... 
> >
> 
> > 
> > Elsevier is just playing on words here. As I said, the right to 
deposit is not at issue. Elsevier does not have any say over where I put my 
final draft.  
> > 
> > The only right at issue is the right to make the deposit immediately 
OA (i.e., free online). 
> > 
> >
> 
> > 
> > Additionally, Durham has reissued its mandate for self-archiving, 
including a requirement that only those deposited (not necessarily open access) 
can be used for consideration in promotion or probation (the 'how' this will 
work us still being looked at - So this has not yet been registered anywhere). 
> >
> 
> > 
> > Bravo on adopting the optimal institutional OA mandate. Soon we can 
hope that the Durham mandate will be reinforced by the very same mandate from 
HEFCE/REF: only articles whose final drafts were deposited in the author's 
institutional repository immediately upon acceptance for publication will be 
eligible for submission to the next REF (2020). 
> > 
> > Institutional and HEFCE immediate-deposit mandates can then mutually 
reinforce one another, and institutions will be able to devise a simple 
mechanism for monitoring and verifying compliance. 
> >  
> 
> > 
> > Because we now mandate deposit, Elsevier have indicated we cannot 
make any publications open access until we sign an agreement with them - which 
includes restricting access from immediate upon publication (as it was without 
a mandate) to the embargo periods mentioned above. 
> >
> 
> > 
> > This is very interesting: Have you asked yourself why Elsevier is 
asking for a second agreement? Isn't the author's signed agreement enough, if 
it is really sufficient to accord him a right yet prevent him from exercising 
that right? 
> > 
> > Well obviously not, because of the double-talk I just mentioned. In 
an agreement with the clause 
> > 
> >
> 
> > 
> > Clause C1: "You retain the right to do X" 
> 
> > 
> > followed by the clause  
> > 
> >
> 
> > 
> > Clause C2: "but you may not "exercise your right" to 
do X if you are required to do X"
> 
> > 
> > you are sanctioning a contradiction. Logically speaking (and 
contracts must obey logic as surely as they must obey the law), this is pretty 
much the same as simply saying: 
> > 
> >
> 
> > 
> > Clause C1: "You may do X" 
> 
> > 
> > and 
> > 
> >
> 
> > 
> > Clause C2: "You may not do X."
> 
> > 
> > With a logical contradiction, you can pretty much take your choice 
and do whatever you like, because anything (and the opposite of anything) 
follows from a contradiction. 
> > 
> > A good choice would be to read sequentially, follow Clause 1, and 
simply ignore Clause 2, which just says the opposite. If challenged, cite 
clause 1. 
> > 
> > And this is the real reason that Elsevier is not comfortable with 
relying on its signed author rights agreement with its authors as grounds for 
restraining them form doing what the retain the right to do if they are 
required to do it. So they instead try to get a signature to yet another 
agreement, from yet another party -- the university -- a further agreement tjat 
would have the (failed) intended effect of the author rights agreement: The 
institution must sign that it may not require the author to exercise his right 
to provide immediate OA. 
> > 
> > Solution? Simple: The university should not sign!  
> > 
> > If Elsevier really thinks its author agreement has already seen to it 
that mandated authors may not provide immediate OA if required by his 
university, then there is no call for the university to sign a thing. 
> > 
> > Of course, this is not quite the way Elsevier goes about trying to 
get the university to sign: It proposes a contingency, in confidential pricing 
negotiations, between the subscription deal it offers the university, and 
whether or not they require immediate OA. 
> > 
> > This would be unethical if it weren't so ludicrous. 
> > 
> > Of course the university should not sign away its right to mandate 
immediate-deposit because of a subscription-deal contingency. 
> > 
> > But the solution is even simpler than that. Not only should the 
university not sign any agreement with Elsevier over what it may or may not 
require its researchers do, but the university should not worry too much about 
embargoes; it should simply implement the "Almost OA" 
email-eprint-request Button. 
> > 
> > That way not only will the university's immediate-deposit mandate 
(with the help of the HEFCE/REF immediate-deposit mandate) ensure that all 
final drafts are immediately deposited and that at least 60% of those 
immediate-deposits (including all Elsevier deposits!) will be made immediately 
OA. But, in addition, even the those immediate-deposits that are from from the 
40% of journals -- which (unlike Springer and Elsevier and APS and IOP and all 
the other publishers who are on the Side if the angels) try to embargo OA -- 
will be made "Almost OA", via the Button. 
> > 
> > And with the help of the eprint Button, the ID/OA mandate will go on 
to make OA embargoes as ineffectual as Clause 2, once the immediate-deposit 
mandate becomes universal. 
> > 
> > And a word about "systematicity": Systematically 
duplicating the contents of a journal would mean duplicating all of its 
contents. But a single institution just provides a tiny (and unsystematic) 
fraction of any journal's contents. 
> > 
> > Globally mandated OA will be another story: But Elsevier cannot hope 
to persuade all universities worldwide to desist from mandating OA! (And it is 
noteworthy that Elsevier is not even trying to get research funders to sign 
"agreements" not mandate OA, or to extend OA embargoes; Elsevier's 
strategy there is lobbying, since they don't have the subscription discount 
carrot with which it lures naive universities into signing over their mandating 
rights in exchange for a better subscription Big-Deal. 
> > 
> >
> 
> > 
> > However, if Alicia is indicating this new stance is a move away from 
that which I was told by Elsevier earlier today, and is still less than clearly 
indicated on their web pages (which indicate an author can comply by 
self-archiving, but then go on to list embargo periods which do not meet RCUK 
policy) then that is great news. 
> >
> 
> > 
> > Alicia is just re-stating the Clause 1. Take her at her word. 
> > 
> > Best wishes, 
> > 
> > Stevan   
> > 
> >  
> 
> > 
> > On 1 May 2013, at 14:49, "Stevan Harnad" <amsciforum AT 
gmail.com> wrote: 
> > 
> >
>> 
>> 
>> > 
>> > Alicia Wise  AT wisealic20h 
>> >  AT AmSciForum Stevan - Elsevier's #oa agreement with RCUK, 
including gold & green options, is described here: 
http://www.elsevier.com/about/publishing-guidelines/policies/funding-body-agreements/research-councils-uk … 
>> > 
>> > Stevan Harnad  AT AmSciForum8h 
>> >  AT wisealic Simple Question: Is/isn't Elsevier-like 
Springer-still Green on immediate, unembargoed #oa self-archiving?  
http://j.mp/11B5gcg  
>> > 
>> > Alicia Wise  AT wisealic19m 
>> >  AT AmSciForum yes, Elsevier endorses immediate self-archiving of 
accepted final drafts free for all on the web immediately upon acceptance. 
>> > 
>> > Stevan Harnad  AT AmSciForum3m 
>> >  AT wisealic Thanks Alicia. Then Elsevier remains on Side of the 
Angels & I will continue to attest to that!
> 
> 
> 
> 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> Andras Holl / Holl Andras                 e-mail: holl AT konkoly.hu 
> Konkoly Observatory / MTA CsFK CsI       Tel.: +36 1 3919368 Fax: +36 1 
2754668 
> IT manager / Szamitastechn. rendszervez. Mail: H1525 POBox 67, Budapest, 
Hungary 
> 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
> 
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[BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors

From: Stevan Harnad <harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 07:52:48 -0400


Threading: [BOAI] Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message


On 2013-05-02, at 4:28 AM, Fotis Georgatos <fotis AT mail.cern.ch> wrote:

> On May 2, 2013, at 9:17 AM, Andras Holl wrote:
>> Regardless however right you are, Elsevier's play with words 
succesfully confuses 
>> a large number of authors, who do not deposit because of this. 
> 
> It is the role of research institutes and university boards to step
> forward and make an emphatic statement about the status quo and,
> how their subordinates/affiliates are expected to behave. Taxpayers 
> do not have an excuse of confusion when they make their contributions
> so, that puts some responsibility on the individual authors, too.
> 
> btw. -sorry if the question has been asked again over here-
> is there an open ranking list of universities worldwide 
> as regards the clarity of their messaging in relation to Open Access?


Dear Fotis,

We have done a study testing the correlation (positive and significant)
between the strength of the institutional Green OA mandates in
ROARMAP and the number of deposits in the repository.

An earlier preprint is below. An updated version will be posted
shortly. Details available from Dr. Yassine Gargouri:
<yassinegargouri AT hotmail.com>

The Liege mandate, the strongest, has a deposit rate of over 80%.
The Liege model -- immediate-deposit (ID/OA) designated the
mechanism for submitting publications for performance review --
is now being adopted more and more, with UK's HEFCE/REF
proposing it also for funder mandates.

Best wishes,

Stevan

Testing the Finch Hypothesis on Green OA Mandate Ineffectiveness

Yassine Gargouri, Vincent Lariviere, Yves Gingras, Tim Brody, Les Carr, Stevan 
Harnad

(Submitted on 30 Oct 2012 (v1), last revised 2 Nov 2012 (this version, v2))

We have now tested the Finch Committee's Hypothesis that Green Open Access 
Mandates 
are ineffective in generating deposits in institutional repositories. With data 
from ROARMAP 
on institutional Green OA mandates and data from ROAR on institutional 
repositories, we
 show that deposit number and rate is significantly correlated with mandate 
strength 
(classified as 1-12): The stronger the mandate, the more the deposits. The 
strongest mandates 
generate deposit rates of 70%+ within 2 years of adoption, compared to the 
un-mandated 
deposit rate of 20%. The effect is already detectable at the national level, 
where the UK, 
which has the largest proportion of Green OA mandates, has a national OA rate 
of 35%, 
compared to the global baseline of 25%. The conclusion is that, contrary to the 
Finch 
Hypothesis, Green Open Access Mandates do have a major effect, and the stronger 

the mandate, the stronger the effect (the Liege ID/OA mandate, linked to 
research 
performance evaluation, being the strongest mandate model). RCUK (as well as 
all universities, research institutions and research funders worldwide) would 
be 
well advised to adopt the strongest Green OA mandates and to integrate 
institutional 
and funder mandates.

ATTACHMENT: message.html!

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[BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors

From: David Prosser <david.prosser AT rluk.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 07:57:43 +0100


Threading: [BOAI] Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from amsciforum AT gmail.com
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I agree with Andras and I cannot see how any publisher who has a policy =
along the lines of:

You may make your author version freely available without embargo unless =
you are mandated (by funder or institution) to do so, in which case you =
may not make your author version freely available without embargo

can be described as being on the side of the Angels.  We may dismiss =
such a policy as FUD or even claim that it is illogical and =
unenforceable - as Stevan does - but we cannot possibly describe it as =
angelic.

David

David C Prosser PhD
Executive Director, RLUK

Tel: +44 (0) 20 7862 8436
Mob: +44 (0) 7825 454586
www.rluk.ac.uk

RLUK Twitter feed: RL_UK
Director's Twitter feed: RLUK_David=20

Postal Address: Room 451, Senate House Library, Senate House, Malet =
Street, London WC1E 7HU

Registered Office:Maughan Library and Information Services Centre, =
King's College London, Chancery Lane,  London WC2A 1LR=20
Registered Company no: 2733294
Registered Charity no: 1026543


On 2 May 2013, at 08:17, Andras Holl wrote:

>=20
> Dear Stevan,=20
>=20
> Regardless however right you are, Elsevier's play with words =
succesfully confuses=20
> a large number of authors, who do not deposit because of this.=20
>=20
> Andras=20
>=20
> On Wed, 1 May 2013 20:24:46 -0400, Stevan Harnad wrote=20
> > On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:10 PM, BISSET J. =
<james.bisset AT durham.ac.uk> wrote:=20
> >=20
> > =20
>=20
> >=20
> > =46rom our understanding of Elsevier policy this is not the case in =
two instances:=20
> >=20
> > 1) if the institution requires deposit in their institutional =
repository=20
> > 2) if the funder requires open access.
>=20
> >=20
> > Dear James,=20
> >=20
> > Elsevier rights agreements state that authors retains the right to =
make their final drafts OA immediately upon publication: no embargo.=20
> >=20
> > I will answer your more detailed questions below, but let me already 
=
give you a simple general answer from which all the specific ones can be =
deduced.=20
> >=20
> > If a contract says you have the right to do X, then it cannot go on =
to stipulate that you only have the "right to exercise" your right to 
do =
X if you are not required to exercise it. That is empty double-talk, and =
can and should be completely ignored as empty. A right is a right; you =
either have it or you don't.=20
> >=20
> > Moreover, Elsevier authors do not need Elsevier's permission to =
deposit in their IRs any more than they need Elsevier's permission to go =
to the WC! =20
> >=20
> > The only thing at issue is the right to make the deposit immediately 
=
OA (i.e., free online). And Elsevier (like Springer, and about 60% of =
all publishers) state that the author retains the right to make the =
final draft OA immediately upon publication: no OA embargo.=20
> >=20
> > So all authors with any sense should go ahead and exercise that =
formally endorsed right that they retain!=20
> >=20
> >
>=20
> >=20
> > I have an email from Elsevier today confirming that in either of the 
=
two cases above, immediate deposit is permitted but open access is not =
permitted until [after] an embargo period...=20
> >
>=20
> >=20
> > Elsevier is just playing on words here. As I said, the right to =
deposit is not at issue. Elsevier does not have any say over where I put =
my final draft. =20
> >=20
> > The only right at issue is the right to make the deposit immediately 
=
OA (i.e., free online).=20
> >=20
> >
>=20
> >=20
> > Additionally, Durham has reissued its mandate for self-archiving, =
including a requirement that only those deposited (not necessarily open =
access) can be used for consideration in promotion or probation (the =
'how' this will work us still being looked at - So this has not yet been =
registered anywhere).=20
> >
>=20
> >=20
> > Bravo on adopting the optimal institutional OA mandate. Soon we can =
hope that the Durham mandate will be reinforced by the very same mandate =
from HEFCE/REF: only articles whose final drafts were deposited in the =
author's institutional repository immediately upon acceptance for =
publication will be eligible for submission to the next REF (2020).=20
> >=20
> > Institutional and HEFCE immediate-deposit mandates can then mutually 
=
reinforce one another, and institutions will be able to devise a simple =
mechanism for monitoring and verifying compliance.=20
> > =20
>=20
> >=20
> > Because we now mandate deposit, Elsevier have indicated we cannot =
make any publications open access until we sign an agreement with them - =
which includes restricting access from immediate upon publication (as it =
was without a mandate) to the embargo periods mentioned above.=20
> >
>=20
> >=20
> > This is very interesting: Have you asked yourself why Elsevier is =
asking for a second agreement? Isn't the author's signed agreement =
enough, if it is really sufficient to accord him a right yet prevent him =
from exercising that right?=20
> >=20
> > Well obviously not, because of the double-talk I just mentioned. In =
an agreement with the clause=20
> >=20
> >
>=20
> >=20
> > Clause C1: "You retain the right to do X"=20
>=20
> >=20
> > followed by the clause =20
> >=20
> >
>=20
> >=20
> > Clause C2: "but you may not "exercise your right" to 
do X if you are =
required to do X"
>=20
> >=20
> > you are sanctioning a contradiction. Logically speaking (and =
contracts must obey logic as surely as they must obey the law), this is =
pretty much the same as simply saying:=20
> >=20
> >
>=20
> >=20
> > Clause C1: "You may do X"=20
>=20
> >=20
> > and=20
> >=20
> >
>=20
> >=20
> > Clause C2: "You may not do X."
>=20
> >=20
> > With a logical contradiction, you can pretty much take your choice =
and do whatever you like, because anything (and the opposite of =
anything) follows from a contradiction.=20
> >=20
> > A good choice would be to read sequentially, follow Clause 1, and =
simply ignore Clause 2, which just says the opposite. If challenged, =
cite clause 1.=20
> >=20
> > And this is the real reason that Elsevier is not comfortable with =
relying on its signed author rights agreement with its authors as =
grounds for restraining them form doing what the retain the right to do =
if they are required to do it. So they instead try to get a signature to =
yet another agreement, from yet another party -- the university -- a =
further agreement tjat would have the (failed) intended effect of the =
author rights agreement: The institution must sign that it may not =
require the author to exercise his right to provide immediate OA.=20
> >=20
> > Solution? Simple: The university should not sign! =20
> >=20
> > If Elsevier really thinks its author agreement has already seen to =
it that mandated authors may not provide immediate OA if required by his =
university, then there is no call for the university to sign a thing.=20
> >=20
> > Of course, this is not quite the way Elsevier goes about trying to =
get the university to sign: It proposes a contingency, in confidential =
pricing negotiations, between the subscription deal it offers the =
university, and whether or not they require immediate OA.=20
> >=20
> > This would be unethical if it weren't so ludicrous.=20
> >=20
> > Of course the university should not sign away its right to mandate =
immediate-deposit because of a subscription-deal contingency.=20
> >=20
> > But the solution is even simpler than that. Not only should the =
university not sign any agreement with Elsevier over what it may or may =
not require its researchers do, but the university should not worry too =
much about embargoes; it should simply implement the "Almost OA" =
email-eprint-request Button.=20
> >=20
> > That way not only will the university's immediate-deposit mandate =
(with the help of the HEFCE/REF immediate-deposit mandate) ensure that =
all final drafts are immediately deposited and that at least 60% of =
those immediate-deposits (including all Elsevier deposits!) will be made =
immediately OA. But, in addition, even the those immediate-deposits that =
are from from the 40% of journals -- which (unlike Springer and Elsevier =
and APS and IOP and all the other publishers who are on the Side if the =
angels) try to embargo OA -- will be made "Almost OA", via the 
Button.=20=

> >=20
> > And with the help of the eprint Button, the ID/OA mandate will go on 
=
to make OA embargoes as ineffectual as Clause 2, once the =
immediate-deposit mandate becomes universal.=20
> >=20
> > And a word about "systematicity": Systematically 
duplicating the =
contents of a journal would mean duplicating all of its contents. But a =
single institution just provides a tiny (and unsystematic) fraction of =
any journal's contents.=20
> >=20
> > Globally mandated OA will be another story: But Elsevier cannot hope 
=
to persuade all universities worldwide to desist from mandating OA! (And =
it is noteworthy that Elsevier is not even trying to get research =
funders to sign "agreements" not mandate OA, or to extend OA 
embargoes; =
Elsevier's strategy there is lobbying, since they don't have the =
subscription discount carrot with which it lures naive universities into =
signing over their mandating rights in exchange for a better =
subscription Big-Deal.=20
> >=20
> >
>=20
> >=20
> > However, if Alicia is indicating this new stance is a move away from 
=
that which I was told by Elsevier earlier today, and is still less than =
clearly indicated on their web pages (which indicate an author can =
comply by self-archiving, but then go on to list embargo periods which =
do not meet RCUK policy) then that is great news.=20
> >
>=20
> >=20
> > Alicia is just re-stating the Clause 1. Take her at her word.=20
> >=20
> > Best wishes,=20
> >=20
> > Stevan  =20
> >=20
> > =20
>=20
> >=20
> > On 1 May 2013, at 14:49, "Stevan Harnad" <amsciforum AT 
gmail.com> =
wrote:=20
> >=20
> >
>>=20
>>=20
>> >=20
>> > Alicia Wise  AT wisealic20h=20
>> >  AT AmSciForum Stevan - Elsevier's #oa agreement with RCUK, 
including =
gold & green options, is described here: =
http://www.elsevier.com/about/publishing-guidelines/policies/funding-body-=
agreements/research-councils-uk =85=20
>> >=20
>> > Stevan Harnad  AT AmSciForum8h=20
>> >  AT wisealic Simple Question: Is/isn't Elsevier-like 
Springer-still =
Green on immediate, unembargoed #oa self-archiving?  http://j.mp/11B5gcg =
=20
>> >=20
>> > Alicia Wise  AT wisealic19m=20
>> >  AT AmSciForum yes, Elsevier endorses immediate self-archiving of 
=
accepted final drafts free for all on the web immediately upon =
acceptance.=20
>> >=20
>> > Stevan Harnad  AT AmSciForum3m=20
>> >  AT wisealic Thanks Alicia. Then Elsevier remains on Side of the 
=
Angels & I will continue to attest to that!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------=20
> Andras Holl / Holl Andras                 e-mail: holl AT konkoly.hu=20
> Konkoly Observatory / MTA CsFK CsI       Tel.: +36 1 3919368 Fax: +36 =
1 2754668=20
> IT manager / Szamitastechn. rendszervez. Mail: H1525 POBox 67, =
Budapest, Hungary=20
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------=20
>=20
> <ATT00001..txt>


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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: 
break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I =
agree with Andras and I cannot see how any publisher who has a policy =
along the lines of:<div><br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"webkit-indent-blockquote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; 
border: =
none; padding: 0px;"><div>You may make your author version freely 
=
available without embargo unless you are mandated (by funder or =
institution) to do so, in which case you may not make your author =
version freely available without =
embargo</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>can be described as being =
on the side of the Angels. &nbsp;We may dismiss such a policy as FUD or =
even claim that it is illogical and unenforceable - as Stevan does - but =
we cannot possibly describe it as =
angelic.</div><div><br></div><div>David</div><div><br><div>
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: 
separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; 
color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">David C Prosser =
PhD<br>Executive Director, RLUK<br><br>Tel: +44 (0) 20 7862 =
8436</div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: 
space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Mob: +44 (0) 7825 
454586<br><a =
href=3D"http://www.rluk.ac.uk">www.rluk.ac.uk</a></div><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br></div><div 
=
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">RLUK Twitter feed: =
RL_UK</div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; 
-webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Director's Twitter 
feed: =
RLUK_David&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><br></div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; 
-webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Postal Address: Room =
451, Senate House Library,&nbsp;Senate House, Malet Street, London WC1E =
7HU</div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: 
space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br></div><div 
=
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Registered Office:Maughan =
Library and Information Services&nbsp;Centre, King's College London, =
Chancery&nbsp;Lane, &nbsp;London WC2A 1LR&nbsp;<br>Registered 
Company =
no: 2733294<br>Registered Charity no: =
1026543<br><br></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div><=
/span></div></span></div></span></div></span></span>
</div>
<br><div><div>On 2 May 2013, at 08:17, Andras Holl 
wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote 
type=3D"cite">

<meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" 
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type">
<meta content=3D"OPENWEBMAIL" name=3D"GENERATOR">

<div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff">

<br>Dear Stevan,
<br>
<br>Regardless however right you are, Elsevier's play with words =
succesfully confuses
<br>a large number of authors, who do not deposit because of this.
<br>
<br>Andras
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2"><b>On Wed, 1 May 2013 20:24:46 
-0400, Stevan Harnad =
wrote</b>
<br>&gt; On Wed,=20
May 1, 2013 at 5:10 PM, BISSET J. <span 
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"mailto:james.bisset AT durham.ac.uk">james.bisset AT 
durham.ac.uk</a>&gt=
;</span> wrote:
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
&nbsp;<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 
1px =
solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" 
class=3D"gmail_quote">
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; =46rom our understanding of Elsevier policy this is not the 
=
case in two=20
instances:

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; 1) if the institution requires deposit in their 
institutional=20=

repository

<br>&gt; 2) if the funder requires open access.</blockquote>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
Dear James,
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Elsevier rights agreements state that authors=20
retains the right to make their final drafts OA immediately upon =
publication: no=20
embargo.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; I will answer your more detailed questions below, but let 
me=20
already give you a simple general answer from which all the specific =
ones can be=20
deduced.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; If a contract says <i>you have&nbsp;the right to 
do X</i>,=20
then it cannot go on to stipulate that you only have the "<i>right 
to=20
exercise"</i>&nbsp;your right to do X if you are not required to 
=
exercise it.=20
That is <a =
href=3D"http://www.google.ca/search?hl=3Den&amp;lr=3D&amp;q=3Dharnad%20OR%=
20Harnad%20OR%20archivangelism+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&amp;=
ie=3DUTF-8&amp;tbm=3Dblg&amp;tbs=3Dqdr:m&amp;num=3D100&amp;c2coff=3D1&amp;=
safe=3Dactive#q=3Delsevier+double-talk+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.o=
rg/&amp;lr=3D&amp;c2coff=3D1&amp;safe=3Dactive&amp;hl=3Den&amp;tbm=3Dblg&a=
mp;tbas=3D0&amp;source=3Dlnt&amp;sa=3DX&amp;ei=3DVpiBUeBI08fSAc-pgaAM&amp;=
ved=3D0CBsQpwUoAA&amp;bav=3Don.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&amp;bvm=3Dbv.45921128,d.dmQ=
&amp;fp=3D1dc003e2610cd254&amp;biw=3D1181&amp;bih=3D708">empty=20
double-talk,</a> and&nbsp;can and should be completely ignored as =
empty.&nbsp;A right is=20
a right; you either have it or you=20
don't.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Moreover, Elsevier authors do not need Elsevier's=20
permission to <i>deposit</i> in their IRs any more than they need =
Elsevier's=20
permission to go to the WC!&nbsp;
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; The only thing at issue is <i>the=20
right to make the deposit immediately OA (i.e., free online)</i>. And =
Elsevier=20
(like Springer, and about 60% of all publishers) state that the author =
retains=20
the right to make the final draft OA immediately upon publication: no OA=20=

embargo.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; So all authors with any sense should go ahead and 
exercise=20
that formally endorsed right that they retain!
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; 
border-left: =
1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" 
class=3D"gmail_quote">

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; I have an email from Elsevier today confirming that in 
either=20=

of the two cases above, immediate deposit is permitted but open access =
is not=20
permitted until [after] an embargo period...
<br>&gt; </blockquote>
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; Elsevier is just playing on words here. As I said, the right 
to=20=

<i>deposit</i> is not at issue. Elsevier does not have any say over 
=
where I put=20
my final draft.&nbsp;
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; The only right at issue is&nbsp;<i>the right to=20
make the deposit immediately OA (i.e., free online)</i>.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid 
=
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" 
class=3D"gmail_quote">
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; Additionally, Durham has reissued its mandate for =
self-archiving,=20
including a requirement that only those deposited (not necessarily open =
access)=20
can be used for consideration in promotion or probation (the 'how' this=20=

will work us still being looked=20
at
 - So this has not yet been registered anywhere).
<br>&gt; </blockquote>
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; Bravo on adopting the optimal institutional OA mandate. Soon 
we =
can=20
hope that the Durham mandate will be reinforced by the very same mandate =
from <a =
href=3D"http://www.hefce.ac.uk/whatwedo/rsrch/rinfrastruct/openaccess/">HE=
FCE/REF</a>:=20
only articles whose final drafts were deposited in the author's=20
institutional repository immediately upon acceptance for publication =
will be=20
eligible for submission to the next REF=20
(2020).

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Institutional and HEFCE immediate-deposit mandates can 
then=20
mutually reinforce one another, and institutions will be able to devise =
a <a =
href=3D"http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/1004-Harnad-Foll=
ow-Up-Comments-to-BIS-Select-Committee-on-Open-Access.html">simple=20
mechanism for monitoring and verifying=20
compliance</a>.

<br>&gt; &nbsp;<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 
0.8ex; =
border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" =
class=3D"gmail_quote">
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; Because we now mandate deposit, Elsevier have indicated we =
cannot make=20
any publications open access until we sign an agreement with them - =
which=20
includes restricting access from immediate upon publication (as it was =
without a=20
mandate) to the embargo=20
periods
 mentioned above.
<br>&gt; </blockquote>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; This is very=20
interesting: Have you asked yourself <i>why</i> Elsevier is asking 
for a =
second=20
agreement? Isn't the author's signed agreement enough, if it is really=20=

sufficient to accord him a right yet prevent him from exercising that=20
right?

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Well obviously not, because of the double-talk I just=20
mentioned. In an agreement with the clause
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; 
border: medium =
none; padding: 0px;">

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <b>Clause C1:</b>&nbsp;"<i>You 
retain the right to do=20
X</i>"&nbsp;</blockquote>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; followed by the clause&nbsp;
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; 
border: medium =
none; padding: 0px;">
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20

<b>Clause C2:&nbsp;</b>"<i>but you may not 
"exercise your right" to=20
do X if you are required to do X</i>"</blockquote>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; you are=20
sanctioning a contradiction. Logically speaking (and contracts must obey =
logic=20
as surely as they must obey the law), this is pretty much the same as =
simply=20
saying:
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20

<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: medium none; =
padding: 0px;">
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; <b>Clause C1:</b>&nbsp;"<i>You 
may do=20
X</i>"&nbsp;</blockquote>

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; and
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; 
border: medium =
none; padding: 0px;">
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <b>Clause C2:&nbsp;</b>"<i>You=20
may not do X</i>."</blockquote>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; With a logical=20
contradiction, you can pretty much take your choice and do whatever you =
like,=20
because anything (and the opposite of anything) follows from a=20
contradiction.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; A good choice would be to read sequentially, follow Clause 
1,=20=

and simply ignore Clause 2, which just says the opposite. If challenged, =
cite=20
clause 1.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; And this is the real reason that Elsevier is not=20
comfortable with relying on its signed author rights agreement with its =
authors=20
as grounds for restraining them form doing what the retain the right to =
do if=20
they are required to do it. So they instead try to get a signature to =
yet=20
another agreement, from yet another party -- the university -- a further=20=

agreement tjat would have the (failed) intended effect of the author =
rights=20
agreement: <i>The institution must sign that it may not require the =
author to=20
exercise his right to provide immediate=20
OA.</i>

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Solution? Simple: The university should not sign!&nbsp;
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; If Elsevier really thinks its author agreement has already 
seen =
to it=20
that mandated authors may not provide immediate OA if required by his=20
university, then there is no call for the university to sign a=20
thing.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Of course, this is not quite the way Elsevier goes about=20
trying to get the university to sign: It proposes a contingency, in =
confidential=20
pricing negotiations, between the subscription deal it offers the =
university,=20
and whether or not they require immediate=20
OA.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; This would be unethical if it weren't so=20
ludicrous.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Of course the university should not sign away its=20
right to mandate immediate-deposit because of a subscription-deal=20
contingency.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; But the solution is even simpler than that. Not only 
should=20
the university not sign any agreement with Elsevier over what it may or =
may not=20
require its researchers do, but the university should not worry too much =
about=20
embargoes; it should simply implement the "Almost OA" <a =
href=3D"http://www.google.ca/search?hl=3Den&amp;lr=3D&amp;q=3Dharnad%20OR%=
20Harnad%20OR%20archivangelism+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&amp;=
ie=3DUTF-8&amp;tbm=3Dblg&amp;tbs=3Dqdr:m&amp;num=3D100&amp;c2coff=3D1&amp;=
safe=3Dactive#q=3DButton+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&amp;hl=3De=
n&amp;lr=3D&amp;c2coff=3D1&amp;safe=3Dactive&amp;tbm=3Dblg&amp;tbas=3D0&am=
p;source=3Dlnt&amp;sa=3DX&amp;ei=3DHnU5UcDCFIyq0AGWhIHQAw&amp;ved=3D0CBwQp=
wUoAA&amp;fp=3D1&amp;biw=3D1288&amp;bih=3D758&amp;bav=3Don.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.=
&amp;cad=3Db&amp;sei=3D5KGBUb2GD6Pm0gGa24HoDw">email-eprint-request=20
Button</a>.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; That way not only will the university's immediate-deposit=20
mandate (with the help of the HEFCE/REF immediate-deposit mandate) =
ensure that=20
all final drafts are immediately deposited and that at least 60% of =
those=20
immediate-deposits (including all Elsevier deposits!) will be made =
immediately=20
OA. But, in addition, even the those immediate-deposits that are from =
from the=20
40% of journals -- which (unlike Springer and Elsevier and APS and IOP =
and all=20
the other publishers who are on the Side if the angels) try to embargo =
OA --=20
will be made "Almost OA", via the=20
Button.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; And with the help of the eprint Button, the ID/OA mandate 
will=20=

go on to make OA embargoes as ineffectual as Clause 2, once the=20
immediate-deposit mandate becomes universal.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; And a word about=20
"systematicity": Systematically duplicating the contents of a 
journal=20
would mean duplicating all of its contents. But a single institution =
just=20
provides a tiny (and unsystematic) fraction of any journal's=20
contents.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Globally mandated OA will be another story: But Elsevier=20
cannot hope to persuade all universities worldwide to desist from =
mandating OA!=20
(And it is noteworthy that Elsevier is not even trying to get research =
funders=20
to sign "agreements" not mandate OA, or to extend OA embargoes;=20
Elsevier's strategy there is lobbying, since they don't have the=20
subscription discount carrot with which it lures naive universities into =
signing=20
over their mandating rights in exchange for a better subscription=20
Big-Deal.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; 
border-left: =
1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" 
class=3D"gmail_quote">
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; However, if Alicia is indicating this new stance is a move 
away =
from=20
that which I was told by Elsevier earlier today, and is still less than =
clearly=20
indicated on their web pages (which indicate an author can comply by=20
self-archiving, but then go on=20
to
 list embargo periods which do not meet RCUK policy) then that is great=20=

news.
<br>&gt; </blockquote>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Alicia is just re-stating the=20
Clause 1. Take her at her word.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Best wishes,
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
Stevan &nbsp;
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &nbsp;<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 
0.8ex; =
border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" =
class=3D"gmail_quote">

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20

On 1 May 2013, at 14:49, "Stevan Harnad" &lt;<a 
target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"mailto:amsciforum AT gmail.com">amsciforum AT 
gmail.com</a>&gt;=20
wrote:
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20

<blockquote type=3D"cite">

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20

<a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(153, 153, 153); =
text-decoration: none;" 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic"><strong =
style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Alicia 
Wise</strong>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; direction: ltr;"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration: =
none; color: rgb(187, 187, 187);"> AT 
</s><b>wisealic</b></span></a><small =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; color: rgb(187, 187, 187); float: right; =
margin-top: 1px;"><a target=3D"_blank" 
style=3D"color: rgb(153, 153, =
153); text-decoration: none;" title=3D"12:35 PM -=20
30 Apr 13" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic/status/329287890641252352">20h</a></s=
mall>

<br>&gt;=20

<a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); 
text-decoration: =
none;" dir=3D"ltr" 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum"><s =
style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: rgb(128, 226, =
147);"> AT </s><b>AmSciForum</b></a>=20
Stevan -=20
Elsevier's
<a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); 
text-decoration: =
none;" dir=3D"ltr" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&amp;src=3Dhash">
<s style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: rgb(128, 226, =
147);">#</s><b>oa</b></a>=20
agreement with RCUK, including gold &amp; green options, is described =
here:<a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); =
text-decoration: none;" rel=3D"nofollow" dir=3D"ltr" =
title=3D"http://www.elsevier.com/about/publishing-guidelines/policies/fund=
ing-body-agreements/research-councils-uk" =
href=3D"http://t.co/s8faOyHfEE"><span style=3D"color: 
rgb(44, 207, 76); =
text-decoration: none; font-size: 0px; line-height: 0;">
http://www.</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); =
text-decoration: 
none;">elsevier.com/about/publishi</span><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none; font-size: 0px; =
line-height: =
0;">ng-guidelines/policies/funding-body-agreements/research-councils-uk</s=
pan><span style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: =
none;"><span style=3D"font-size: 0px; line-height: =
0;">&nbsp;</span>=85</span></a>

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: 
rgb(153, 153, 153); =
text-decoration: none;" 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum"><strong =
style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Stevan 
Harnad</strong>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; direction: ltr;"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration: =
none; color: rgb(187, 187, =
187);"> AT 
</s><b>AmSciForum</b></span></a><small 
style=3D"font-size: 12px; =
color: rgb(187, 187, 187); float: right; margin-top: 1px;"><a =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(153, 153, 153); 
text-decoration: =
none;" title=3D"11:50 PM=20
- 30 Apr 13" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum/status/329457762482397185">8h</a></=
small>

<br>&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: 
rgb(44, 207, 76); =
text-decoration: none;" dir=3D"ltr" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration: none; =
color: rgb(128, 226, 147);"> AT 
</s><b>wisealic</b></a>=20
Simple=20
Question:
 Is/isn't Elsevier-like Springer-still Green on immediate, unembargoed =
<a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); 
text-decoration: =
none;" dir=3D"ltr" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&amp;src=3Dhash">
<s style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: rgb(128, 226, =
147);">#</s><b>oa</b></a>=20
self-archiving?
<a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); 
text-decoration: =
none;" rel=3D"nofollow" dir=3D"ltr" 
title=3D"http://j.mp/11B5gcg" =
href=3D"http://t.co/Jd0DTucqng">&nbsp;<span 
style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, =
76); text-decoration: none; font-size: 0px; line-height: =
0;">http://</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); 
=
text-decoration: none;">j.mp/11B5gcg</span><font 
color=3D"#2ccf4c"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 0px; line-height: 
0;"></span></font><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none;"><span 
=
style=3D"font-size: 0px; line-height: 
0;">&nbsp;</span></span></a>

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: 
rgb(153, 153, 153); =
text-decoration: none;" 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic"><strong =
style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Alicia 
Wise</strong>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; direction: ltr;"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration: =
none; color: rgb(187, 187, 187);"> AT 
</s><b>wisealic</b></span></a><small =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; color: rgb(187, 187, 187); float: right; =
margin-top: 1px;"><a target=3D"_blank" 
style=3D"color: rgb(153, 153, =
153); text-decoration: none;" title=3D"8:27 AM - 1=20
May 13" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic/status/329587843716509696">19m</a></s=
mall>

<br>&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: 
rgb(44, 207, 76); =
text-decoration: none;" dir=3D"ltr" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration: =
none; color: rgb(128, 226, 147);"> AT 
</s><b>AmSciForum</b></a>=20
<b>yes,=20
Elsevier
 endorses immediate self-archiving of accepted final drafts free for all =
on the=20
web immediately upon=20
acceptance.</b>

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: 
rgb(153, 153, 153); =
text-decoration: none;" 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum"><strong =
style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Stevan 
Harnad</strong>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; direction: ltr;"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration: =
none; color: rgb(187, 187, =
187);"> AT 
</s><b>AmSciForum</b></span></a><small 
style=3D"font-size: 12px; =
color: rgb(187, 187, 187); float: right; margin-top: 1px;"><a =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(153, 153, 153); 
text-decoration: =
none;" title=3D"8:43 AM -=20
1 May 13" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum/status/329591992843640833">3m</a></=
small>

<br>&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: 
rgb(44, 207, 76); =
text-decoration: none;" dir=3D"ltr" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration: none; =
color: rgb(128, 226, 147);"> AT 
</s><b>wisealic</b></a>
 Thanks Alicia. Then Elsevier remains on Side of the Angels &amp; I 
will=20=

continue to attest to=20
that!
<a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); 
text-decoration: =
none;" dir=3D"ltr" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&amp;src=3Dhash">
</a></blockquote></blockquote>
<br>
<br>
=
<br>----------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------=20

<br>
Andras Holl / Holl Andras &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;
e-mail: <a href=3D"mailto:holl AT konkoly.hu">holl AT 
konkoly.hu</a>=20

<br>
Konkoly Observatory / MTA CsFK CsI &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Tel.: +36 1 
=
3919368 Fax:=20
+36 1 2754668=20

<br>
IT manager / Szamitastechn. rendszervez. Mail: H1525 POBox 67, Budapest, =
Hungary=20

<br>
=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------=20

<br>

<br>
</font>

</div>


=
<span>&lt;ATT00001..txt&gt;</span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></ht=
ml>=

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[BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors

From: "Andras Holl" <holl AT konkoly.hu>
Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 11:02:31 +0200


Threading: [BOAI] Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message


Though this be madness, yet there is method in it. I think that could be said 
on Elsevier's OA
policy, because of two reasons. Firstly, it quite effectively hinders OA. 
Secondly, however badly
constructed this OA policy is, one can see that from a publisher's perspective, 
mandates like the NIH mandate are threatening. As a side effect, other mandates 
- which would cover only a tiny fraction of the articles, and does not 
designate a single target repository are also affected, regardless that these 
hardly affect any publishers' profits.

Andras

On Fri, 3 May 2013 07:57:43 +0100, David Prosser wrote
> I agree with Andras and I cannot see how any publisher who has a policy 
along the lines of:
> 
> 
> You may make your author version freely available without embargo unless 
you are mandated (by funder or institution) to do so, in which case you may not 
make your author version freely available without embargo
> 
> can be described as being on the side of the Angels.  We may dismiss such 
a policy as FUD or even claim that it is illogical and unenforceable - as 
Stevan does - but we cannot possibly describe it as angelic.
> 
> David
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> David C Prosser PhD
> Executive Director, RLUK
> 
> Tel: +44 (0) 20 7862 8436
> Mob: +44 (0) 7825 454586
> www.rluk.ac.uk
> 
> RLUK Twitter feed: RL_UK
> Director's Twitter feed: RLUK_David 
> 
> Postal Address: Room 451, Senate House Library, Senate House, Malet 
Street, London WC1E 7HU
> 
> Registered Office:Maughan Library and Information Services Centre, King's 
College London, Chancery Lane,  London WC2A 1LR 
> Registered Company no: 2733294
> Registered Charity no: 1026543
> 
> 
> 
> On 2 May 2013, at 08:17, Andras Holl wrote:
> 
> Dear Stevan,
> 
> Regardless however right you are, Elsevier's play with words succesfully 
confuses
> a large number of authors, who do not deposit because of this.
> 
> Andras
> 
> On Wed, 1 May 2013 20:24:46 -0400, Stevan Harnad wrote
> > On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:10 PM, BISSET J. <james.bisset AT 
durham.ac.uk> wrote:
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > From our understanding of Elsevier policy this is not the case in two 
instances:
> > 
> > 1) if the institution requires deposit in their institutional 
repository
> > 2) if the funder requires open access.
> > 
> > Dear James,
> > 
> > Elsevier rights agreements state that authors retains the right to 
make their final drafts OA immediately upon publication: no embargo.
> > 
> > I will answer your more detailed questions below, but let me already 
give you a simple general answer from which all the specific ones can be 
deduced.
> > 
> > If a contract says you have the right to do X, then it cannot go on 
to stipulate that you only have the "right to exercise" your right 
to do X if you are not required to exercise it. That is empty double-talk, 
and can and should be completely ignored as empty. A right is a right; you 
either have it or you don't.
> > 
> > Moreover, Elsevier authors do not need Elsevier's permission to 
deposit in their IRs any more than they need Elsevier's permission to go to the 
WC! 
> > 
> > The only thing at issue is the right to make the deposit immediately 
OA (i.e., free online). And Elsevier (like Springer, and about 60% of all 
publishers) state that the author retains the right to make the final draft OA 
immediately upon publication: no OA embargo.
> > 
> > So all authors with any sense should go ahead and exercise that 
formally endorsed right that they retain!
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I have an email from Elsevier today confirming that in either of the 
two cases above, immediate deposit is permitted but open access is not 
permitted until [after] an embargo period...
> > 
> > 
> > Elsevier is just playing on words here. As I said, the right to 
deposit is not at issue. Elsevier does not have any say over where I put my 
final draft. 
> > 
> > The only right at issue is the right to make the deposit immediately 
OA (i.e., free online).
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Additionally, Durham has reissued its mandate for self-archiving, 
including a requirement that only those deposited (not necessarily open access) 
can be used for consideration in promotion or probation (the 'how' this will 
work us still being looked at- So this has not yet been registered anywhere).
> > 
> > 
> > Bravo on adopting the optimal institutional OA mandate. Soon we can 
hope that the Durham mandate will be reinforced by the very same mandate from 
HEFCE/REF: only articles whose final drafts were deposited in the author's 
institutional repository immediately upon acceptance for publication will be 
eligible for submission to the next REF (2020).
> > 
> > Institutional and HEFCE immediate-deposit mandates can then mutually 
reinforce one another, and institutions will be able to devise a simple 
mechanism for monitoring and verifying compliance.
> >  
> > 
> > Because we now mandate deposit, Elsevier have indicated we cannot 
make any publications open access until we sign an agreement with them - which 
includes restricting access from immediate upon publication (as it was without 
a mandate) to the embargo periodsmentioned above.
> > 
> > 
> > This is very interesting: Have you asked yourself why Elsevier is 
asking for a second agreement? Isn't the author's signed agreement enough, if 
it is really sufficient to accord him a right yet prevent him from exercising 
that right?
> > 
> > Well obviously not, because of the double-talk I just mentioned. In 
an agreement with the clause
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Clause C1: "You retain the right to do X" 
> > 
> > followed by the clause 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Clause C2: "but you may not "exercise your right" to 
do X if you are required to do X"
> > 
> > you are sanctioning a contradiction. Logically speaking (and 
contracts must obey logic as surely as they must obey the law), this is pretty 
much the same as simply saying:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Clause C1: "You may do X" 
> > 
> > and
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Clause C2: "You may not do X."
> > 
> > With a logical contradiction, you can pretty much take your choice 
and do whatever you like, because anything (and the opposite of anything) 
follows from a contradiction.
> > 
> > A good choice would be to read sequentially, follow Clause 1, and 
simply ignore Clause 2, which just says the opposite. If challenged, cite 
clause 1.
> > 
> > And this is the real reason that Elsevier is not comfortable with 
relying on its signed author rights agreement with its authors as grounds for 
restraining them form doing what the retain the right to do if they are 
required to do it. So they instead try to get a signature to yet another 
agreement, from yet another party -- the university -- a further agreement tjat 
would have the (failed) intended effect of the author rights agreement: The 
institution must sign that it may not require the author to exercise his right 
to provide immediate OA.
> > 
> > Solution? Simple: The university should not sign! 
> > 
> > If Elsevier really thinks its author agreement has already seen to it 
that mandated authors may not provide immediate OA if required by his 
university, then there is no call for the university to sign a thing.
> > 
> > Of course, this is not quite the way Elsevier goes about trying to 
get the university to sign: It proposes a contingency, in confidential pricing 
negotiations, between the subscription deal it offers the university, and 
whether or not they require immediate OA.
> > 
> > This would be unethical if it weren't so ludicrous.
> > 
> > Of course the university should not sign away its right to mandate 
immediate-deposit because of a subscription-deal contingency.
> > 
> > But the solution is even simpler than that. Not only should the 
university not sign any agreement with Elsevier over what it may or may not 
require its researchers do, but the university should not worry too much about 
embargoes; it should simply implement the "Almost OA" 
email-eprint-request Button.
> > 
> > That way not only will the university's immediate-deposit mandate 
(with the help of the HEFCE/REF immediate-deposit mandate) ensure that all 
final drafts are immediately deposited and that at least 60% of those 
immediate-deposits (including all Elsevier deposits!) will be made immediately 
OA. But, in addition, even the those immediate-deposits that are from from the 
40% of journals -- which (unlike Springer and Elsevier and APS and IOP and all 
the other publishers who are on the Side if the angels) try to embargo OA -- 
will be made "Almost OA", via the Button.
> > 
> > And with the help of the eprint Button, the ID/OA mandate will go on 
to make OA embargoes as ineffectual as Clause 2, once the immediate-deposit 
mandate becomes universal.
> > 
> > And a word about "systematicity": Systematically 
duplicating the contents of a journal would mean duplicating all of its 
contents. But a single institution just provides a tiny (and unsystematic) 
fraction of any journal's contents.
> > 
> > Globally mandated OA will be another story: But Elsevier cannot hope 
to persuade all universities worldwide to desist from mandating OA! (And it is 
noteworthy that Elsevier is not even trying to get research funders to sign 
"agreements" not mandate OA, or to extend OA embargoes; Elsevier's 
strategy there is lobbying, since they don't have the subscription discount 
carrot with which it lures naive universities into signing over their mandating 
rights in exchange for a better subscription Big-Deal.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > However, if Alicia is indicating this new stance is a move away from 
that which I was told by Elsevier earlier today, and is still less than clearly 
indicated on their web pages (which indicate an author can comply by 
self-archiving, but then go on tolist embargo periods which do not meet RCUK 
policy) then that is great news.
> > 
> > 
> > Alicia is just re-stating the Clause 1. Take her at her word.
> > 
> > Best wishes,
> > 
> > Stevan  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > On 1 May 2013, at 14:49, "Stevan Harnad" <amsciforum AT 
gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Alicia Wise  AT wisealic20h
> >  AT AmSciForum Stevan - Elsevier's#oa agreement with RCUK, including 
gold & green options, is described 
here:http://www.elsevier.com/about/publishing-guidelines/policies/funding-body-agreements/research-councils-uk …
> > 
> > Stevan Harnad  AT AmSciForum8h
> >  AT wisealic Simple Question:Is/isn't Elsevier-like Springer-still 
Green on immediate, unembargoed #oa self-archiving? http://j.mp/11B5gcg 
> > 
> > Alicia Wise  AT wisealic19m
> >  AT AmSciForum yes, Elsevierendorses immediate self-archiving of 
accepted final drafts free for all on the web immediately upon acceptance.
> > 
> > Stevan Harnad  AT AmSciForum3m
> >  AT wisealicThanks Alicia. Then Elsevier remains on Side of the 
Angels & I will continue to attest to that!
> 
> 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> Andras Holl / Holl Andras                e-mail: holl AT 
konkoly.hu 
> Konkoly Observatory / MTA CsFK CsI       Tel.: +36 1 3919368 Fax: +36 1 
2754668 
> IT manager / Szamitastechn. rendszervez. Mail: H1525 POBox 67, Budapest, 
Hungary 
> 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
> <ATT00001..txt>

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Andras Holl / Holl Andras                e-mail: holl AT konkoly.hu 
Konkoly Observatory / MTA CsFK CsI       Tel.: +36 1 3919368 Fax: +36 1 
2754668 
IT manager / Szamitastechn. rendszervez. Mail: H1525 POBox 67, Budapest, 
Hungary 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

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[BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors

From: Stevan Harnad <harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 07:25:35 -0400


Threading: [BOAI] Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message


On 2013-05-03, at 2:57 AM, David Prosser <david.prosser AT rluk.ac.uk> 
wrote:

> I agree with Andras and I cannot see how any publisher who has a policy 
along the lines of:
> 
> You may make your author version freely available without embargo unless 
you are mandated (by funder or institution) to do so, in which case you may not 
make your author version freely available without embargo
> 
> can be described as being on the side of the Angels.  We may dismiss such 
a policy as FUD or even claim that it is illogical and unenforceable - as 
Stevan does - but we cannot possibly describe it as angelic.

Since -- exactly like Springer's (hedge-free) rights-retention policy (and 
countless others) -- Elsevier's policy does indeed formally recognize right of 
the authors of the articles published in 2000 Elsevier journals to make them 
immediately OA (unembargoed), I would say that the "angelic" tag was 
fully earned.

The tag is not earned for the FUD. The right right response to the FUD is to 
ignore it.

Let's not waste time and divert attention to the question of whether they are 
Cherubim or Seraphim: The fact that Elsevier give their Green Light to 
immediate, unembargoed OA-provision by their authors is what matters (to those 
who care more about OA than about journal pricing or publisher boycotting).

Harrumph!

Stevan

> On 2 May 2013, at 08:17, Andras Holl wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Dear Stevan, 
>> 
>> Regardless however right you are, Elsevier's play with words 
succesfully confuses 
>> a large number of authors, who do not deposit because of this. 
>> 
>> Andras 
>> 
>> On Wed, 1 May 2013 20:24:46 -0400, Stevan Harnad wrote 
>> > On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:10 PM, BISSET J. <james.bisset AT 
durham.ac.uk> wrote: 
>> > 
>> >  
>> 
>> > 
>> > From our understanding of Elsevier policy this is not the case in 
two instances: 
>> > 
>> > 1) if the institution requires deposit in their institutional 
repository 
>> > 2) if the funder requires open access.
>> 
>> > 
>> > Dear James, 
>> > 
>> > Elsevier rights agreements state that authors retains the right 
to make their final drafts OA immediately upon publication: no embargo. 
>> > 
>> > I will answer your more detailed questions below, but let me 
already give you a simple general answer from which all the specific ones can 
be deduced. 
>> > 
>> > If a contract says you have the right to do X, then it cannot go 
on to stipulate that you only have the "right to exercise" your right 
to do X if you are not required to exercise it. That is empty double-talk, and 
can and should be completely ignored as empty. A right is a right; you either 
have it or you don't. 
>> > 
>> > Moreover, Elsevier authors do not need Elsevier's permission to 
deposit in their IRs any more than they need Elsevier's permission to go to the 
WC!  
>> > 
>> > The only thing at issue is the right to make the deposit 
immediately OA (i.e., free online). And Elsevier (like Springer, and about 60% 
of all publishers) state that the author retains the right to make the final 
draft OA immediately upon publication: no OA embargo. 
>> > 
>> > So all authors with any sense should go ahead and exercise that 
formally endorsed right that they retain! 
>> > 
>> >
>> 
>> > 
>> > I have an email from Elsevier today confirming that in either of 
the two cases above, immediate deposit is permitted but open access is not 
permitted until [after] an embargo period... 
>> >
>> 
>> > 
>> > Elsevier is just playing on words here. As I said, the right to 
deposit is not at issue. Elsevier does not have any say over where I put my 
final draft.  
>> > 
>> > The only right at issue is the right to make the deposit 
immediately OA (i.e., free online). 
>> > 
>> >
>> 
>> > 
>> > Additionally, Durham has reissued its mandate for self-archiving, 
including a requirement that only those deposited (not necessarily open access) 
can be used for consideration in promotion or probation (the 'how' this will 
work us still being looked at - So this has not yet been registered anywhere). 
>> >
>> 
>> > 
>> > Bravo on adopting the optimal institutional OA mandate. Soon we 
can hope that the Durham mandate will be reinforced by the very same mandate 
from HEFCE/REF: only articles whose final drafts were deposited in the author's 
institutional repository immediately upon acceptance for publication will be 
eligible for submission to the next REF (2020). 
>> > 
>> > Institutional and HEFCE immediate-deposit mandates can then 
mutually reinforce one another, and institutions will be able to devise a 
simple mechanism for monitoring and verifying compliance. 
>> >  
>> 
>> > 
>> > Because we now mandate deposit, Elsevier have indicated we cannot 
make any publications open access until we sign an agreement with them - which 
includes restricting access from immediate upon publication (as it was without 
a  mandate) to the embargo periods mentioned above. 
>> >
>> 
>> > 
>> > This is very interesting: Have you asked yourself why Elsevier is 
asking for a second agreement? Isn't the author's signed agreement enough, if 
it is really sufficient to accord him a right yet prevent him from exercising 
that right? 
>> > 
>> > Well obviously not, because of the double-talk I just mentioned. 
In an agreement with the clause 
>> > 
>> >
>> 
>> > 
>> > Clause C1: "You retain the right to do X" 
>> 
>> > 
>> > followed by the clause  
>> > 
>> >
>> 
>> > 
>> > Clause C2: "but you may not "exercise your right" 
to do X if you are required to do X"
>> 
>> > 
>> > you are sanctioning a contradiction. Logically speaking (and 
contracts must obey logic as surely as they must obey the law), this is pretty 
much the same as simply saying: 
>> > 
>> >
>> 
>> > 
>> > Clause C1: "You may do X" 
>> 
>> > 
>> > and 
>> > 
>> >
>> 
>> > 
>> > Clause C2: "You may not do X."
>> 
>> > 
>> > With a logical contradiction, you can pretty much take your 
choice and do whatever you like, because anything (and the opposite of 
anything) follows from a contradiction. 
>> > 
>> > A good choice would be to read sequentially, follow Clause 1, and 
simply ignore Clause 2, which just says the opposite. If challenged, cite 
clause 1. 
>> > 
>> > And this is the real reason that Elsevier is not comfortable with 
relying on its signed author rights agreement with its authors as grounds for 
restraining them form doing what the retain the right to do if they are 
required to do it. So they instead try to get a signature to yet another 
agreement, from yet another party -- the university -- a further agreement tjat 
would have the (failed) intended effect of the author rights agreement: The 
institution must sign that it may not require the author to exercise his right 
to provide immediate OA. 
>> > 
>> > Solution? Simple: The university should not sign!  
>> > 
>> > If Elsevier really thinks its author agreement has already seen 
to it that mandated authors may not provide immediate OA if required by his 
university, then there is no call for the university to sign a thing. 
>> > 
>> > Of course, this is not quite the way Elsevier goes about trying 
to get the university to sign: It proposes a contingency, in confidential 
pricing negotiations, between the subscription deal it offers the university, 
and whether or not they require immediate OA. 
>> > 
>> > This would be unethical if it weren't so ludicrous. 
>> > 
>> > Of course the university should not sign away its right to 
mandate immediate-deposit because of a subscription-deal contingency. 
>> > 
>> > But the solution is even simpler than that. Not only should the 
university not sign any agreement with Elsevier over what it may or may not 
require its researchers do, but the university should not worry too much about 
embargoes; it should simply implement the "Almost OA" 
email-eprint-request Button. 
>> > 
>> > That way not only will the university's immediate-deposit mandate 
(with the help of the HEFCE/REF immediate-deposit mandate) ensure that all 
final drafts are immediately deposited and that at least 60% of those 
immediate-deposits (including all Elsevier deposits!) will be made immediately 
OA. But, in addition, even the those immediate-deposits that are from from the 
40% of journals -- which (unlike Springer and Elsevier and APS and IOP and all 
the other publishers who are on the Side if the angels) try to embargo OA -- 
will be made "Almost OA", via the Button. 
>> > 
>> > And with the help of the eprint Button, the ID/OA mandate will go 
on to make OA embargoes as ineffectual as Clause 2, once the immediate-deposit 
mandate becomes universal. 
>> > 
>> > And a word about "systematicity": Systematically 
duplicating the contents of a journal would mean duplicating all of its 
contents. But a single institution just provides a tiny (and unsystematic) 
fraction of any journal's contents. 
>> > 
>> > Globally mandated OA will be another story: But Elsevier cannot 
hope to persuade all universities worldwide to desist from mandating OA! (And 
it is noteworthy that Elsevier is not even trying to get research funders to 
sign "agreements" not mandate OA, or to extend OA embargoes; 
Elsevier's strategy there is lobbying, since they don't have the subscription 
discount carrot with which it lures naive universities into signing over their 
mandating rights in exchange for a better subscription Big-Deal. 
>> > 
>> >
>> 
>> > 
>> > However, if Alicia is indicating this new stance is a move away 
from that which I was told by Elsevier earlier today, and is still less than 
clearly indicated on their web pages (which indicate an author can comply by 
self-archiving, but then go on to list embargo periods which do not meet RCUK 
policy) then that is great news. 
>> >
>> 
>> > 
>> > Alicia is just re-stating the Clause 1. Take her at her word. 
>> > 
>> > Best wishes, 
>> > 
>> > Stevan   
>> > 
>> >  
>> 
>> > 
>> > On 1 May 2013, at 14:49, "Stevan Harnad" <amsciforum 
AT gmail.com> wrote: 
>> > 
>> >
>>> 
>>> 
>>> > 
>>> > Alicia Wise  AT wisealic20h 
>>> >  AT AmSciForum Stevan - Elsevier's #oa agreement with RCUK, 
including gold & green options, is described here: 
http://www.elsevier.com/about/publishing-guidelines/policies/funding-body-agreements/research-councils-uk  
>>> > 
>>> > Stevan Harnad  AT AmSciForum8h 
>>> >  AT wisealic Simple Question: Is/isn't Elsevier-like 
Springer-still Green on immediate, unembargoed #oa self-archiving?  
http://j.mp/11B5gcg  
>>> > 
>>> > Alicia Wise  AT wisealic19m 
>>> >  AT AmSciForum yes, Elsevier endorses immediate 
self-archiving of accepted final drafts free for all on the web immediately 
upon acceptance. 
>>> > 
>>> > Stevan Harnad  AT AmSciForum3m 
>>> >  AT wisealic Thanks Alicia. Then Elsevier remains on Side of 
the Angels & I will continue to attest to that!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> Andras Holl / Holl Andras                 e-mail: holl AT konkoly.hu 
>> Konkoly Observatory / MTA CsFK CsI       Tel.: +36 1 3919368 Fax: +36 
1 2754668 
>> IT manager / Szamitastechn. rendszervez. Mail: H1525 POBox 67, 
Budapest, Hungary 
>> 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> 
>> <ATT00001..txt>
> 
> 
> --      
> To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:
> http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f


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[BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors

From: David Prosser <david.prosser AT rluk.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 12:57:50 +0100


Threading: [BOAI] Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message


--Apple-Mail-20-580530814
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=windows-1252

> Since -- exactly like Springer's (hedge-free) rights-retention policy =
(and countless others) -- Elsevier's policy does indeed formally =
recognize right of the authors of the articles published in 2000 =
Elsevier journals to make them immediately OA (unembargoed), I would say =
that the "angelic" tag was fully earned.

Actually, they don't.  See:

http://www.elsevier.com/authors/author-rights-and-responsibilities

Penultimate row of the column:

'Mandated deposit or deposit in or posting to subject-oriented or =
centralized repositories'

for 'accepted author manuscripts' 'Yes under specific agreement between =
Elsevier and the repository**'

To me that means 'no' if no agreement between Elsevier and the =
repository.  The exception is arXiv where Elsevier obviously feel the =
horse has bolted and there is no point trying to close that stable door.=20=


David




On 3 May 2013, at 12:25, Stevan Harnad wrote:

> On 2013-05-03, at 2:57 AM, David Prosser <david.prosser AT 
rluk.ac.uk> =
wrote:
>=20
>> I agree with Andras and I cannot see how any publisher who has a =
policy along the lines of:
>>=20
>> You may make your author version freely available without embargo =
unless you are mandated (by funder or institution) to do so, in which =
case you may not make your author version freely available without =
embargo
>>=20
>> can be described as being on the side of the Angels.  We may dismiss =
such a policy as FUD or even claim that it is illogical and =
unenforceable - as Stevan does - but we cannot possibly describe it as =
angelic.
>=20
> Since -- exactly like Springer's (hedge-free) rights-retention policy =
(and countless others) -- Elsevier's policy does indeed formally =
recognize right of the authors of the articles published in 2000 =
Elsevier journals to make them immediately OA (unembargoed), I would say =
that the "angelic" tag was fully earned.
>=20
> The tag is not earned for the FUD. The right right response to the FUD =
is to ignore it.
>=20
> Let's not waste time and divert attention to the question of whether =
they are Cherubim or Seraphim: The fact that Elsevier give their Green =
Light to immediate, unembargoed OA-provision by their authors is what =
matters (to those who care more about OA than about journal pricing or =
publisher boycotting).
>=20
> Harrumph!
>=20
> Stevan
>=20
>> On 2 May 2013, at 08:17, Andras Holl wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Dear Stevan,=20
>>>=20
>>> Regardless however right you are, Elsevier's play with words =
succesfully confuses=20
>>> a large number of authors, who do not deposit because of this.=20
>>>=20
>>> Andras=20
>>>=20
>>> On Wed, 1 May 2013 20:24:46 -0400, Stevan Harnad wrote=20
>>> > On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:10 PM, BISSET J. =
<james.bisset AT durham.ac.uk> wrote:=20
>>> >=20
>>> > =20
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > =46rom our understanding of Elsevier policy this is not the 
case =
in two instances:=20
>>> >=20
>>> > 1) if the institution requires deposit in their institutional 
=
repository=20
>>> > 2) if the funder requires open access.
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Dear James,=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Elsevier rights agreements state that authors retains the 
right to =
make their final drafts OA immediately upon publication: no embargo.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > I will answer your more detailed questions below, but let me 
=
already give you a simple general answer from which all the specific =
ones can be deduced.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > If a contract says you have the right to do X, then it cannot 
go =
on to stipulate that you only have the "right to exercise" your right 
to =
do X if you are not required to exercise it. That is empty double-talk, =
and can and should be completely ignored as empty. A right is a right; =
you either have it or you don't.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Moreover, Elsevier authors do not need Elsevier's permission 
to =
deposit in their IRs any more than they need Elsevier's permission to go =
to the WC! =20
>>> >=20
>>> > The only thing at issue is the right to make the deposit =
immediately OA (i.e., free online). And Elsevier (like Springer, and =
about 60% of all publishers) state that the author retains the right to =
make the final draft OA immediately upon publication: no OA embargo.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > So all authors with any sense should go ahead and exercise 
that =
formally endorsed right that they retain!=20
>>> >=20
>>> >
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > I have an email from Elsevier today confirming that in either 
of =
the two cases above, immediate deposit is permitted but open access is =
not permitted until [after] an embargo period...=20
>>> >
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Elsevier is just playing on words here. As I said, the right 
to =
deposit is not at issue. Elsevier does not have any say over where I put =
my final draft. =20
>>> >=20
>>> > The only right at issue is the right to make the deposit =
immediately OA (i.e., free online).=20
>>> >=20
>>> >
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Additionally, Durham has reissued its mandate for 
self-archiving, =
including a requirement that only those deposited (not necessarily open =
access) can be used for consideration in promotion or probation (the =
'how' this will work us still being looked at - So this has not yet been =
registered anywhere).=20
>>> >
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Bravo on adopting the optimal institutional OA mandate. Soon 
we =
can hope that the Durham mandate will be reinforced by the very same =
mandate from HEFCE/REF: only articles whose final drafts were deposited =
in the author's institutional repository immediately upon acceptance for =
publication will be eligible for submission to the next REF (2020).=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Institutional and HEFCE immediate-deposit mandates can then =
mutually reinforce one another, and institutions will be able to devise =
a simple mechanism for monitoring and verifying  compliance.=20
>>> > =20
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Because we now mandate deposit, Elsevier have indicated we 
cannot =
make any publications open access until we sign an agreement with them - =
which includes restricting access from immediate upon publication (as it =
was without a mandate) to the embargo periods mentioned above.=20
>>> >
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > This is very interesting: Have you asked yourself why 
Elsevier is =
asking for a second agreement? Isn't the author's signed agreement =
enough, if it is really sufficient to accord him a right yet prevent him =
from exercising that right?=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Well obviously not, because of the double-talk I just 
mentioned. =
In an agreement with the clause=20
>>> >=20
>>> >
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Clause C1: "You retain the right to do X"=20
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > followed by the clause =20
>>> >=20
>>> >
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Clause C2: "but you may not "exercise your 
right" to do X if you =
are required to do X"
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > you are sanctioning a contradiction. Logically speaking (and 
=
contracts must obey logic as surely as they must obey the law), this is =
pretty much the same as simply saying:=20
>>> >=20
>>> >
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Clause C1: "You may do X"=20
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > and=20
>>> >=20
>>> >
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Clause C2: "You may not do X."
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > With a logical contradiction, you can pretty much take your 
choice =
and do whatever you like, because anything (and the opposite of =
anything) follows from a contradiction.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > A good choice would be to read sequentially, follow Clause 1, 
and =
simply ignore Clause 2, which just says the opposite. If challenged, =
cite clause 1.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > And this is the real reason that Elsevier is not comfortable 
with =
relying on its signed author rights agreement with its authors as =
grounds for restraining them form doing what the retain the right to do =
if they are required to do it. So they instead try to get a signature to =
yet another agreement, from yet another party -- the university -- a =
further agreement tjat would have the (failed) intended effect of the =
author rights agreement: The institution must sign that it may not =
require the author to exercise his right to provide immediate OA.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Solution? Simple: The university should not sign! =20
>>> >=20
>>> > If Elsevier really thinks its author agreement has already 
seen to =
it that mandated authors may not provide immediate OA if required by his =
university, then there is no call for the university to sign a thing.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Of course, this is not quite the way Elsevier goes about 
trying to =
get the university to sign: It proposes a contingency, in confidential =
pricing negotiations, between the subscription deal it offers the =
university, and whether or not they require immediate OA.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > This would be unethical if it weren't so ludicrous.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Of course the university should not sign away its right to 
mandate =
immediate-deposit because of a subscription-deal contingency.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > But the solution is even simpler than that. Not only should 
the =
university not sign any agreement with Elsevier over what it may or may =
not require its researchers do, but the university should not worry too =
much about embargoes; it should simply implement the "Almost OA" =
email-eprint-request Button.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > That way not only will the university's immediate-deposit 
mandate =
(with the help of the HEFCE/REF immediate-deposit mandate) ensure that =
all final drafts are immediately deposited and that at least 60% of =
those immediate-deposits (including all Elsevier deposits!) will be made =
immediately OA. But, in addition, even the those immediate-deposits that =
are from from the 40% of journals -- which (unlike Springer and Elsevier =
and APS and IOP and all the other publishers who are on the Side if the =
angels) try to embargo OA -- will be made "Almost OA", via the 
Button.=20=

>>> >=20
>>> > And with the help of the eprint Button, the ID/OA mandate 
will go =
on to make OA embargoes as ineffectual as Clause 2, once the =
immediate-deposit mandate becomes universal.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > And a word about "systematicity": Systematically 
duplicating the =
contents of a journal would mean duplicating all of its contents. But a =
single institution just provides a tiny (and unsystematic) fraction of =
any journal's contents.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Globally mandated OA will be another story: But Elsevier 
cannot =
hope to persuade all universities worldwide to desist from mandating OA! =
(And it is noteworthy that Elsevier is not even trying to get research =
funders to sign "agreements" not mandate OA, or to extend OA 
embargoes; =
Elsevier's strategy there is lobbying, since they don't have the =
subscription discount carrot with which it lures naive universities into =
signing over their mandating rights in exchange for a better =
subscription Big-Deal.=20
>>> >=20
>>> >
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > However, if Alicia is indicating this new stance is a move 
away =
from that which I was told by Elsevier earlier today, and is still less =
than clearly indicated on their web pages (which indicate an author can =
comply by self-archiving, but then go on to list embargo periods which =
do not meet RCUK policy) then that is great news.=20
>>> >
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Alicia is just re-stating the Clause 1. Take her at her 
word.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Best wishes,=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Stevan  =20
>>> >=20
>>> > =20
>>>=20
>>> >=20
>>> > On 1 May 2013, at 14:49, "Stevan Harnad" 
<amsciforum AT gmail.com> =
wrote:=20
>>> >=20
>>> >
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> >=20
>>>> > Alicia Wise  AT wisealic20h=20
>>>> >  AT AmSciForum Stevan - Elsevier's #oa agreement with 
RCUK, =
including gold & green options, is described here: =
http://www.elsevier.com/about/publishing-guidelines/policies/funding-body-=
agreements/research-councils-uk =85=20
>>>> >=20
>>>> > Stevan Harnad  AT AmSciForum8h=20
>>>> >  AT wisealic Simple Question: Is/isn't Elsevier-like 
Springer-still =
Green on immediate, unembargoed #oa self-archiving?  http://j.mp/11B5gcg =
=20
>>>> >=20
>>>> > Alicia Wise  AT wisealic19m=20
>>>> >  AT AmSciForum yes, Elsevier endorses immediate 
self-archiving of =
accepted final drafts free for all on the web immediately upon =
acceptance.=20
>>>> >=20
>>>> > Stevan Harnad  AT AmSciForum3m=20
>>>> >  AT wisealic Thanks Alicia. Then Elsevier remains on Side 
of the =
Angels & I will continue to attest to that!
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------=20
>>> Andras Holl / Holl Andras                 e-mail: holl AT 
konkoly.hu=20
>>> Konkoly Observatory / MTA CsFK CsI       Tel.: +36 1 3919368 Fax: 
=
+36 1 2754668=20
>>> IT manager / Szamitastechn. rendszervez. Mail: H1525 POBox 67, =
Budapest, Hungary=20
>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------=20
>>>=20
>>> <ATT00001..txt>
>>=20
>>=20
>> --     =20
>> To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:
>> http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f
>=20
> <ATT00001..txt>


--Apple-Mail-20-580530814
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=windows-1252

<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: 
break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div 
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div>Since -- exactly like Springer's (hedge-free) 
rights-retention =
policy (and countless others) -- Elsevier's policy does indeed formally =
recognize right of the authors of the articles published in 2000 =
Elsevier journals to make them immediately OA (unembargoed), I would say =
that the "angelic" tag was fully =
earned.</div></div></blockquote><div><div 
style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; 
"><div><br></div><div>Actually, they don't. =
&nbsp;See:</div><div><br></div><div><a =
href=3D"http://www.elsevier.com/authors/author-rights-and-responsibilities=
">http://www.elsevier.com/authors/author-rights-and-responsibilities</a></=
div><div><br></div><div>Penultimate row of the =
column:</div><div><br></div><div><b>'<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; =
line-height: 18px; ">Mandated deposit or deposit in or posting to =
subject-oriented or centralized 
repositories'</span></b></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Helvetica, 
sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"line-height: =
18px;"><b><br></b></span></font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Helvetica, 
sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"line-height: 
18px;">for 'accepted =
author manuscripts'<b> '</b></span></font><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span"=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; =
line-height: 18px; ">Yes under specific agreement between Elsevier and 
=
the repository**'</span></div><div><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; =
line-height: 18px; 
"><br></span></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, 
sans-serif; =
font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; ">To me that means 'no' if no =
agreement between Elsevier and the repository. &nbsp;The exception is =
arXiv where Elsevier obviously feel the horse has bolted and there is no =
point trying to close that stable 
door.&nbsp;</span></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, 
sans-serif; =
font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; 
"><br></span></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, 
sans-serif; =
font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; 
">David</span></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, 
sans-serif; =
font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; 
"><br></span></div></div></div><div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br></div><div 
=
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><br></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></d=
iv></span></div></span></div>
</div>
<br><div><div>On 3 May 2013, at 12:25, Stevan Harnad 
wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote 
type=3D"cite"><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><div>On 2013-05-03, at 2:57 AM, David Prosser 
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:david.prosser AT rluk.ac.uk">david.prosser AT 
rluk.ac.uk</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br 
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; 
-webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I agree with Andras and 
=
I cannot see how any publisher who has a policy along the lines =
of:<div><br></div><blockquote 
class=3D"webkit-indent-blockquote" =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;">You may 
make =
your author version freely available without embargo unless you are =
mandated (by funder or institution) to do so, in which case you may not =
make your author version freely available without =
embargo</blockquote><div><br></div><div>can be 
described as being on the =
side of the Angels. &nbsp;We may dismiss such a policy as FUD or even =
claim that it is illogical and unenforceable - as Stevan does - but we =
cannot possibly describe it as =
angelic.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Since -- exactly like =
Springer's (hedge-free) rights-retention policy (and countless others) =
-- Elsevier's policy does indeed formally recognize right of the authors =
of the articles published in 2000 Elsevier journals to make them =
immediately OA (unembargoed), I would say that the "angelic" tag was 
=
fully earned.</div><div><br></div><div>The tag is 
not earned for the =
FUD. The right right response to the FUD is to ignore =
it.</div><div><br></div><div>Let's not waste time 
and divert attention =
to the question of whether they are Cherubim or Seraphim: The fact that =
Elsevier give their Green Light to immediate, unembargoed OA-provision =
by their authors is what matters (to those who care more about OA than =
about journal pricing or publisher =
boycotting).</div><div><br></div><div>Harrumph!</div><div><br></div><div>S=
tevan</div><div><br><blockquote 
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><div><div><div>On 2 May 2013, at 
08:17, Andras Holl =
wrote:</div><br 
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">

<meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" 
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type">
<meta content=3D"OPENWEBMAIL" name=3D"GENERATOR">

<div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff">

<br>Dear Stevan,
<br>
<br>Regardless however right you are, Elsevier's play with words =
succesfully confuses
<br>a large number of authors, who do not deposit because of this.
<br>
<br>Andras
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2"><b>On Wed, 1 May 2013 20:24:46 
-0400, Stevan Harnad =
wrote</b>
<br>&gt; On Wed,=20
May 1, 2013 at 5:10 PM, BISSET J. <span 
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"mailto:james.bisset AT durham.ac.uk">james.bisset AT 
durham.ac.uk</a>&gt=
;</span> wrote:
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
&nbsp;<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 
1px =
solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" 
class=3D"gmail_quote">
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; =46rom our understanding of Elsevier policy this is not the 
=
case in two=20
instances:

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; 1) if the institution requires deposit in their 
institutional=20=

repository

<br>&gt; 2) if the funder requires open access.</blockquote>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
Dear James,
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Elsevier rights agreements state that authors=20
retains the right to make their final drafts OA immediately upon =
publication: no=20
embargo.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; I will answer your more detailed questions below, but let 
me=20
already give you a simple general answer from which all the specific =
ones can be=20
deduced.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; If a contract says <i>you have&nbsp;the right to 
do X</i>,=20
then it cannot go on to stipulate that you only have the "<i>right 
to=20
exercise"</i>&nbsp;your right to do X if you are not required to 
=
exercise it.=20
That is <a =
href=3D"http://www.google.ca/search?hl=3Den&amp;lr=3D&amp;q=3Dharnad%20OR%=
20Harnad%20OR%20archivangelism+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&amp;=
ie=3DUTF-8&amp;tbm=3Dblg&amp;tbs=3Dqdr:m&amp;num=3D100&amp;c2coff=3D1&amp;=
safe=3Dactive#q=3Delsevier+double-talk+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.o=
rg/&amp;lr=3D&amp;c2coff=3D1&amp;safe=3Dactive&amp;hl=3Den&amp;tbm=3Dblg&a=
mp;tbas=3D0&amp;source=3Dlnt&amp;sa=3DX&amp;ei=3DVpiBUeBI08fSAc-pgaAM&amp;=
ved=3D0CBsQpwUoAA&amp;bav=3Don.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&amp;bvm=3Dbv.45921128,d.dmQ=
&amp;fp=3D1dc003e2610cd254&amp;biw=3D1181&amp;bih=3D708">empty=20
double-talk,</a> and&nbsp;can and should be completely ignored as =
empty.&nbsp;A right is=20
a right; you either have it or you=20
don't.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Moreover, Elsevier authors do not need Elsevier's=20
permission to <i>deposit</i> in their IRs any more than they need =
Elsevier's=20
permission to go to the WC!&nbsp;
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; The only thing at issue is <i>the=20
right to make the deposit immediately OA (i.e., free online)</i>. And =
Elsevier=20
(like Springer, and about 60% of all publishers) state that the author =
retains=20
the right to make the final draft OA immediately upon publication: no OA=20=

embargo.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; So all authors with any sense should go ahead and 
exercise=20
that formally endorsed right that they retain!
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; 
border-left: =
1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" 
class=3D"gmail_quote">

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; I have an email from Elsevier today confirming that in 
either=20=

of the two cases above, immediate deposit is permitted but open access =
is not=20
permitted until [after] an embargo period...
<br>&gt; </blockquote>
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; Elsevier is just playing on words here. As I said, the right 
to=20=

<i>deposit</i> is not at issue. Elsevier does not have any say over 
=
where I put=20
my final draft.&nbsp;
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; The only right at issue is&nbsp;<i>the right to=20
make the deposit immediately OA (i.e., free online)</i>.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid 
=
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" 
class=3D"gmail_quote">
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; Additionally, Durham has reissued its mandate for =
self-archiving,=20
including a requirement that only those deposited (not necessarily open =
access)=20
can be used for consideration in promotion or probation (the 'how' this=20=

will work us still being looked=20
at
 - So this has not yet been registered anywhere).
<br>&gt; </blockquote>
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; Bravo on adopting the optimal institutional OA mandate. Soon 
we =
can=20
hope that the Durham mandate will be reinforced by the very same mandate =
from <a =
href=3D"http://www.hefce.ac.uk/whatwedo/rsrch/rinfrastruct/openaccess/">HE=
FCE/REF</a>:=20
only articles whose final drafts were deposited in the author's=20
institutional repository immediately upon acceptance for publication =
will be=20
eligible for submission to the next REF=20
(2020).

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Institutional and HEFCE immediate-deposit mandates can 
then=20
mutually reinforce one another, and institutions will be able to devise =
a <a =
href=3D"http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/1004-Harnad-Foll=
ow-Up-Comments-to-BIS-Select-Committee-on-Open-Access.html">simple=20
mechanism for monitoring and verifying=20
compliance</a>.

<br>&gt; &nbsp;<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 
0.8ex; =
border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" =
class=3D"gmail_quote">
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; Because we now mandate deposit, Elsevier have indicated we =
cannot make=20
any publications open access until we sign an agreement with them - =
which=20
includes restricting access from immediate upon publication (as it was =
without a=20
mandate) to the embargo=20
periods
 mentioned above.
<br>&gt; </blockquote>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; This is very=20
interesting: Have you asked yourself <i>why</i> Elsevier is asking 
for a =
second=20
agreement? Isn't the author's signed agreement enough, if it is really=20=

sufficient to accord him a right yet prevent him from exercising that=20
right?

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Well obviously not, because of the double-talk I just=20
mentioned. In an agreement with the clause
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; 
border: medium =
none; padding: 0px;">

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <b>Clause C1:</b>&nbsp;"<i>You 
retain the right to do=20
X</i>"&nbsp;</blockquote>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; followed by the clause&nbsp;
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; 
border: medium =
none; padding: 0px;">
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20

<b>Clause C2:&nbsp;</b>"<i>but you may not 
"exercise your right" to=20
do X if you are required to do X</i>"</blockquote>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; you are=20
sanctioning a contradiction. Logically speaking (and contracts must obey =
logic=20
as surely as they must obey the law), this is pretty much the same as =
simply=20
saying:
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20

<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: medium none; =
padding: 0px;">
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; <b>Clause C1:</b>&nbsp;"<i>You 
may do=20
X</i>"&nbsp;</blockquote>

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; and
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; 
border: medium =
none; padding: 0px;">
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <b>Clause C2:&nbsp;</b>"<i>You=20
may not do X</i>."</blockquote>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; With a logical=20
contradiction, you can pretty much take your choice and do whatever you =
like,=20
because anything (and the opposite of anything) follows from a=20
contradiction.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; A good choice would be to read sequentially, follow Clause 
1,=20=

and simply ignore Clause 2, which just says the opposite. If challenged, =
cite=20
clause 1.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; And this is the real reason that Elsevier is not=20
comfortable with relying on its signed author rights agreement with its =
authors=20
as grounds for restraining them form doing what the retain the right to =
do if=20
they are required to do it. So they instead try to get a signature to =
yet=20
another agreement, from yet another party -- the university -- a further=20=

agreement tjat would have the (failed) intended effect of the author =
rights=20
agreement: <i>The institution must sign that it may not require the =
author to=20
exercise his right to provide immediate=20
OA.</i>

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Solution? Simple: The university should not sign!&nbsp;
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; If Elsevier really thinks its author agreement has already 
seen =
to it=20
that mandated authors may not provide immediate OA if required by his=20
university, then there is no call for the university to sign a=20
thing.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Of course, this is not quite the way Elsevier goes about=20
trying to get the university to sign: It proposes a contingency, in =
confidential=20
pricing negotiations, between the subscription deal it offers the =
university,=20
and whether or not they require immediate=20
OA.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; This would be unethical if it weren't so=20
ludicrous.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Of course the university should not sign away its=20
right to mandate immediate-deposit because of a subscription-deal=20
contingency.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; But the solution is even simpler than that. Not only 
should=20
the university not sign any agreement with Elsevier over what it may or =
may not=20
require its researchers do, but the university should not worry too much =
about=20
embargoes; it should simply implement the "Almost OA" <a =
href=3D"http://www.google.ca/search?hl=3Den&amp;lr=3D&amp;q=3Dharnad%20OR%=
20Harnad%20OR%20archivangelism+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&amp;=
ie=3DUTF-8&amp;tbm=3Dblg&amp;tbs=3Dqdr:m&amp;num=3D100&amp;c2coff=3D1&amp;=
safe=3Dactive#q=3DButton+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&amp;hl=3De=
n&amp;lr=3D&amp;c2coff=3D1&amp;safe=3Dactive&amp;tbm=3Dblg&amp;tbas=3D0&am=
p;source=3Dlnt&amp;sa=3DX&amp;ei=3DHnU5UcDCFIyq0AGWhIHQAw&amp;ved=3D0CBwQp=
wUoAA&amp;fp=3D1&amp;biw=3D1288&amp;bih=3D758&amp;bav=3Don.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.=
&amp;cad=3Db&amp;sei=3D5KGBUb2GD6Pm0gGa24HoDw">email-eprint-request=20
Button</a>.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; That way not only will the university's immediate-deposit=20
mandate (with the help of the HEFCE/REF immediate-deposit mandate) =
ensure that=20
all final drafts are immediately deposited and that at least 60% of =
those=20
immediate-deposits (including all Elsevier deposits!) will be made =
immediately=20
OA. But, in addition, even the those immediate-deposits that are from =
from the=20
40% of journals -- which (unlike Springer and Elsevier and APS and IOP =
and all=20
the other publishers who are on the Side if the angels) try to embargo =
OA --=20
will be made "Almost OA", via the=20
Button.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; And with the help of the eprint Button, the ID/OA mandate 
will=20=

go on to make OA embargoes as ineffectual as Clause 2, once the=20
immediate-deposit mandate becomes universal.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; And a word about=20
"systematicity": Systematically duplicating the contents of a 
journal=20
would mean duplicating all of its contents. But a single institution =
just=20
provides a tiny (and unsystematic) fraction of any journal's=20
contents.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Globally mandated OA will be another story: But Elsevier=20
cannot hope to persuade all universities worldwide to desist from =
mandating OA!=20
(And it is noteworthy that Elsevier is not even trying to get research =
funders=20
to sign "agreements" not mandate OA, or to extend OA embargoes;=20
Elsevier's strategy there is lobbying, since they don't have the=20
subscription discount carrot with which it lures naive universities into =
signing=20
over their mandating rights in exchange for a better subscription=20
Big-Deal.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; 
border-left: =
1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" 
class=3D"gmail_quote">
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; However, if Alicia is indicating this new stance is a move 
away =
from=20
that which I was told by Elsevier earlier today, and is still less than =
clearly=20
indicated on their web pages (which indicate an author can comply by=20
self-archiving, but then go on=20
to
 list embargo periods which do not meet RCUK policy) then that is great=20=

news.
<br>&gt; </blockquote>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Alicia is just re-stating the=20
Clause 1. Take her at her word.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Best wishes,
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
Stevan &nbsp;
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &nbsp;<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 
0.8ex; =
border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" =
class=3D"gmail_quote">

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20

On 1 May 2013, at 14:49, "Stevan Harnad" &lt;<a 
target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"mailto:amsciforum AT gmail.com">amsciforum AT 
gmail.com</a>&gt;=20
wrote:
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20

<blockquote type=3D"cite">

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20

<a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(153, 153, 153); =
text-decoration: none;" 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic"><strong =
style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Alicia 
Wise</strong>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; direction: ltr;"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration: =
none; color: rgb(187, 187, 187);"> AT 
</s><b>wisealic</b></span></a><small =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; color: rgb(187, 187, 187); float: right; =
margin-top: 1px;"><a target=3D"_blank" 
style=3D"color: rgb(153, 153, =
153); text-decoration: none;" title=3D"12:35 PM -=20
30 Apr 13" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic/status/329287890641252352">20h</a></s=
mall>

<br>&gt;=20

<a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); 
text-decoration: =
none;" dir=3D"ltr" 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum"><s =
style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: rgb(128, 226, =
147);"> AT </s><b>AmSciForum</b></a>=20
Stevan -=20
Elsevier's
<a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); 
text-decoration: =
none;" dir=3D"ltr" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&amp;src=3Dhash">
<s style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: rgb(128, 226, =
147);">#</s><b>oa</b></a>=20
agreement with RCUK, including gold &amp; green options, is described =
here:<a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); =
text-decoration: none;" rel=3D"nofollow" dir=3D"ltr" =
title=3D"http://www.elsevier.com/about/publishing-guidelines/policies/fund=
ing-body-agreements/research-councils-uk" =
href=3D"http://t.co/s8faOyHfEE"><span style=3D"color: 
rgb(44, 207, 76); =
text-decoration: none; font-size: 0px; line-height: 0;">
http://www.</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); =
text-decoration: 
none;">elsevier.com/about/publishi</span><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none; font-size: 0px; =
line-height: =
0;">ng-guidelines/policies/funding-body-agreements/research-councils-uk</s=
pan><span style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: =
none;"><span style=3D"font-size: 0px; line-height: =
0;">&nbsp;</span>=85</span></a>

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: 
rgb(153, 153, 153); =
text-decoration: none;" 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum"><strong =
style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Stevan 
Harnad</strong>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; direction: ltr;"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration: =
none; color: rgb(187, 187, =
187);"> AT 
</s><b>AmSciForum</b></span></a><small 
style=3D"font-size: 12px; =
color: rgb(187, 187, 187); float: right; margin-top: 1px;"><a =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(153, 153, 153); 
text-decoration: =
none;" title=3D"11:50 PM=20
- 30 Apr 13" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum/status/329457762482397185">8h</a></=
small>

<br>&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: 
rgb(44, 207, 76); =
text-decoration: none;" dir=3D"ltr" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration: none; =
color: rgb(128, 226, 147);"> AT 
</s><b>wisealic</b></a>=20
Simple=20
Question:
 Is/isn't Elsevier-like Springer-still Green on immediate, unembargoed =
<a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); 
text-decoration: =
none;" dir=3D"ltr" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&amp;src=3Dhash">
<s style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: rgb(128, 226, =
147);">#</s><b>oa</b></a>=20
self-archiving?
<a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); 
text-decoration: =
none;" rel=3D"nofollow" dir=3D"ltr" 
title=3D"http://j.mp/11B5gcg" =
href=3D"http://t.co/Jd0DTucqng">&nbsp;<span 
style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, =
76); text-decoration: none; font-size: 0px; line-height: =
0;">http://</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); 
=
text-decoration: none;">j.mp/11B5gcg</span><font 
color=3D"#2ccf4c"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 0px; line-height: 
0;"></span></font><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none;"><span 
=
style=3D"font-size: 0px; line-height: 
0;">&nbsp;</span></span></a>

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: 
rgb(153, 153, 153); =
text-decoration: none;" 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic"><strong =
style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Alicia 
Wise</strong>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; direction: ltr;"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration: =
none; color: rgb(187, 187, 187);"> AT 
</s><b>wisealic</b></span></a><small =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; color: rgb(187, 187, 187); float: right; =
margin-top: 1px;"><a target=3D"_blank" 
style=3D"color: rgb(153, 153, =
153); text-decoration: none;" title=3D"8:27 AM - 1=20
May 13" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic/status/329587843716509696">19m</a></s=
mall>

<br>&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: 
rgb(44, 207, 76); =
text-decoration: none;" dir=3D"ltr" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration: =
none; color: rgb(128, 226, 147);"> AT 
</s><b>AmSciForum</b></a>=20
<b>yes,=20
Elsevier
 endorses immediate self-archiving of accepted final drafts free for all =
on the=20
web immediately upon=20
acceptance.</b>

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: 
rgb(153, 153, 153); =
text-decoration: none;" 
href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum"><strong =
style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Stevan 
Harnad</strong>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; direction: ltr;"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration: =
none; color: rgb(187, 187, =
187);"> AT 
</s><b>AmSciForum</b></span></a><small 
style=3D"font-size: 12px; =
color: rgb(187, 187, 187); float: right; margin-top: 1px;"><a =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(153, 153, 153); 
text-decoration: =
none;" title=3D"8:43 AM -=20
1 May 13" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum/status/329591992843640833">3m</a></=
small>

<br>&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: 
rgb(44, 207, 76); =
text-decoration: none;" dir=3D"ltr" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic"><s 
style=3D"text-decoration: none; =
color: rgb(128, 226, 147);"> AT 
</s><b>wisealic</b></a>
 Thanks Alicia. Then Elsevier remains on Side of the Angels &amp; I 
will=20=

continue to attest to=20
that!
<a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); 
text-decoration: =
none;" dir=3D"ltr" =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&amp;src=3Dhash">
</a></blockquote></blockquote>
<br>
<br>
=
<br>----------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------=20

<br>
Andras Holl / Holl Andras &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;
e-mail: <a href=3D"mailto:holl AT konkoly.hu">holl AT 
konkoly.hu</a>=20

<br>
Konkoly Observatory / MTA CsFK CsI &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Tel.: +36 1 
=
3919368 Fax:=20
+36 1 2754668=20

<br>
IT manager / Szamitastechn. rendszervez. Mail: H1525 POBox 67, Budapest, =
Hungary=20

<br>
=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------=20

<br>

<br>
</font>

</div>


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[BOAI] My last post on the Cherubim/Seraphim issue (promise!)

From: Stevan Harnad <harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 07:59:49 -0400


Threading: [BOAI] Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message



On 2013-05-03, at 5:02 AM, Andras Holl <holl AT konkoly.hu> wrote:

> Though this be madness, yet there is method in it. I think that could be 
said on Elsevier's OA 
> policy, because of two reasons. Firstly, it quite effectively hinders OA. 
Secondly, however badly 
> constructed this OA policy is, one can see that from a publisher's 
perspective, mandates like the
> NIH mandate are threatening. As a side effect, other mandates - which 
would cover only a tiny
> fraction of the articles, and does not designate a single target 
repository are also affected,
> regardless that these hardly affect any publishers' profits. 


Andras,

You are right that the pseudo-legal hedging is a pain.

But in point of fact, Elsevier is still just as Green on paper as Springer is,
once one realizes that one can ignore all their hedging.

It is clear that Elsevier wants to hold onto the good PR it gains them to be
perceived as "Green." That's why they have not, in fact, revoked 
their
policy since it was adopted in 2004. They have a terrible image problem, 
on all fronts, and this is their only positive face.

But it's not just psychology or strategy: The Elsevier policy really does
mean that all Elsevier authors retain their right to provide Green OA,
unembargoed. 

Yes, it's a nuisance that Elsevier hedges this with pseudo-legal FUD,
but our job is to make it clear to authors, institutions and funders that
the Elsevier policy does, indeed, formally allow immediate, unembargoed
OA, exactly as Springer policy does, and that the Elsevier hedging is 
empty and can be completely ignored.

The real problem here is not Elsevier's double talk: It is the gratuitous
boost that the credibility of Elsevier's hedging has received from the
breath-takingly fatuous and counterproductive Finch/RCUK policy and its
"flow-charts" (which Elsevier has eagerly included in its rights 
documentation).

For Elsevier has now got a new "positive face" that it can use for 
PR:
Elsevier is fully "RCUK-compliant."

Please add this to the growing list of the perverse effects of Finch/RCUK...

But rest assured that (1) the RCUK's own forced back-pedalling, grudgingly
admitting that Green is just as RCUK-compliant as Gold, together with
(2) HEFCE/RCUK's timely proposal to mandate immediate-deposit as the
precondition for submitting a paper for REF 2020 undoes most of the
damage done by the Finch Report.

Stevan

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[BOAI] Re: [GOAL] My last post on the Cherubim/Seraphim issue (promise!)

From: brentier AT ulg.ac.be
Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 15:08:12 +0200 (CEST)


Threading: [BOAI] Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message

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[BOAI] Re: [GOAL] Re: My last post on the Cherubim/Seraphim issue (promise!)

From: Michael Eisen <mbeisen AT gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 06:50:05 -0700


Threading: [BOAI] Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message

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Back in 2002 when the debates about Gold vs. Green OA began, I and other
advocates for developing Gold OA publishing argued that the friendly stance
of publishers like Elsevier to self-archiving was a transient state, and
that as soon as people started to make appreciable numbers of papers
available in IRs - thereby actually threatening publisher revenues -
publishers would change their tune. And this is exactly what we're seeing
with Elsevier. Yes, their policies now are confusing, but I suspect they
won't be for long, and that we'll soon see explicit policies that require
embargoes.

The proper response on the part of instituions is not to sign agreements
with Elsevier and other publishers allowing embargoes, but to set a clear
mandate for OA with no embargoes. Publishers will have to live with our
terms, rather than continuing to demand that we live with theirs.


On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:08 AM, <brentier AT ulg.ac.be> wrote:

> Elsevier's policy is now clear:
> *Accepted author manuscripts 
(AAM)<http://www.elsevier.com/about/open-acc=
ess/open-access-policies/article-posting-policy#accepted-author-manuscript>
> *: Immediate posting and dissemination of AAM=92s is allowed to personal
> websites, to institutional repositories, or to arXiv. However, if your
> institution has an open access policy or mandate that requires you to pos=
t,
> Elsevier requires an agreement to be in place which respects the
> journal-specific embargo periods. Click 
here<http://cdn.elsevier.com/asse=
ts/pdf_file/0018/121293/external-embargo-list.pdf> for
> a list of journal specific embargo periods (PDF) and see our funding body
> 
agreements<http://www.elsevier.com/about/open-access/open-access-policies=
/funding-body-agreements> for
> more details.
>
> Le 3 mai 2013 =E0 14:17, Stevan Harnad <harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk> a 
=E9crit=
 :
>
>
> On 2013-05-03, at 5:02 AM, Andras Holl <holl AT konkoly.hu> wrote:
>
> Though this be madness, yet there is method in it. I think that could be
> said on Elsevier's OA
> policy, because of two reasons. Firstly, it quite effectively hinders OA.
> Secondly, however badly
> constructed this OA policy is, one can see that from a publisher's
> perspective, mandates like the
>
> NIH mandate are threatening. As a side effect, other mandates - which
> would cover only a tiny
>
> fraction of the articles, and does not designate a single target
> repository are also affected,
>
> regardless that these hardly affect any publishers' profits.
>
>
> Andras,
>
> You are right that the pseudo-legal hedging is a pain.
>
> But in point of fact, Elsevier is still just as Green on paper as Springe=
r
> is,
> once one realizes that one can ignore all their hedging.
>
> It is clear that Elsevier wants to hold onto the good PR it gains them to
> be
> perceived as "Green." That's why they have not, in fact, revoked 
their
> policy since it was adopted in 
2004<http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/harnad/H=
ypermail/Amsci/index.html#msg3771>.
> They have a terrible image problem,
> on all fronts, and this is their only positive face.
>
> But it's not just psychology or strategy: *The Elsevier policy really doe=
s
> *
> *mean that all Elsevier authors retain their right to provide Green OA,*
> *unembargoed. *
>
> Yes, it's a nuisance that Elsevier hedges this with pseudo-legal FUD,
> but our job is to make it clear to authors, institutions and funders that
> the Elsevier policy does, indeed, formally allow immediate, unembargoed
> OA, exactly as Springer policy does, and that the Elsevier hedging is
> empty and can be completely ignored.
>
> The real problem here is not Elsevier's double talk: It is *the gratuitou=
s
> *
> *boost that the credibility of Elsevier's hedging has received from the*
> *breath-takingly fatuous and counterproductive Finch/RCUK policy* and its
> "flow-charts" (which Elsevier has eagerly included in its rights
> documentation).
>
> For Elsevier has now got a new "positive face" that it can use 
for PR:
> Elsevier is fully "*RCUK-compliant*."
>
> Please add this to the growing list of the perverse effects of
> Finch/RCUK...
>
> But rest assured that (1) the RCUK's own forced back-pedalling, grudgingl=
y
> admitting that Green is just as RCUK-compliant as Gold, together with
> (2) HEFCE/RCUK's timely proposal to mandate immediate-deposit as the
> precondition for submitting a paper for REF 2020 undoes most of the
> damage done by the Finch Report.
>
> Stevan
>
> _______________________________________________
> GOAL mailing list
> GOAL AT eprints.org
> http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GOAL mailing list
> GOAL AT eprints.org
> http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal
>
>


--=20
Michael Eisen, Ph.D.
Investigator, Howard Hughes Medical Institute
Associate Professor, Department of Molecular and Cell Biology
University of California, Berkeley

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Back in 2002 when the debates about Gold vs. 
Green OA bega=
n, I and other advocates for developing Gold OA publishing argued that the =
friendly stance of publishers like Elsevier to self-archiving was a transie=
nt state, and that as soon as people started to make appreciable numbers of=
 papers available in IRs - thereby actually threatening publisher revenues =
- publishers would change their tune. And this is exactly what we&#39;re 
se=
eing with Elsevier. Yes, their policies now are confusing, but I suspect th=
ey won&#39;t be for long, and that we&#39;ll soon see explicit policies 
tha=
t require embargoes.<div>
<br></div><div style>The proper response on the part of 
instituions is not =
to sign agreements with Elsevier and other publishers allowing embargoes, b=
ut to set a clear mandate for OA with no embargoes. Publishers will have to=
 live with our terms, rather than continuing to demand that we live with th=
eirs.</div>
</div><div 
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div 
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri,=
 May 3, 2013 at 6:08 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a 
href=3D"mailto:brentier AT =
ulg.ac.be" target=3D"_blank">brentier AT 
ulg.ac.be</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 
.8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Elsevier&#39;s policy is now 
clear:</div><div><table=
 border=3D"1" style=3D"border-spacing:0px;width:779px;border:1px 
solid rgb(=
188,188,188);border-top-left-radius:6px;border-top-right-radius:6px;border-=
bottom-right-radius:6px;border-bottom-left-radius:6px;margin:12px 0px 
35px"=
>
<tbody><tr><td 
style=3D"margin:0px;padding:8px;border-top-width:1px;border-=
right-width:0px;border-bottom-width:0px;border-top-color:rgb(188,188,188);b=
order-top-style:solid;border-left-style:none;color:rgb(56,56,56);font-size:=
12px;text-align:left">
<font color=3D"#000000" size=3D"3"><span 
style=3D"background-color:rgba(255=
,255,255,0)"><strong><a 
href=3D"http://www.elsevier.com/about/open-access/o=
pen-access-policies/article-posting-policy#accepted-author-manuscript" 
styl=
e=3D"text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank">Accepted 
author manuscripts (A=
AM)</a></strong>: Immediate posting and dissemination of AAM=92s is 
allowed=
 to personal websites, to institutional repositories, or to arXiv. However,=
 if your institution has an open access policy or mandate that requires you=
 to post, Elsevier requires an agreement to be in place which respects the =
journal-specific embargo periods. Click=A0<a 
href=3D"http://cdn.elsevier.co=
m/assets/pdf_file/0018/121293/external-embargo-list.pdf" 
style=3D"text-deco=
ration:none" target=3D"_blank">here</a>=A0for a list of 
journal specific em=
bargo periods (PDF) and see our=A0<a 
href=3D"http://www.elsevier.com/about/=
open-access/open-access-policies/funding-body-agreements" 
style=3D"text-dec=
oration:none" target=3D"_blank">funding body 
agreements</a>=A0for more deta=
ils.</span></font></td>
</tr><tr 
style=3D"background-color:rgb(247,247,247);background-repeat:initi=
al 
initial"></tr></tbody></table><br></div><div><br>Le 3 mai 2013 =E0 14:17=
, Stevan Harnad &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:harnad AT 
ecs.soton.ac.uk" target=3D"_bl=
ank">harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk</a>&gt; a 
=E9crit=A0:<br>
<br></div><div><div 
class=3D"h5"><blockquote 
type=3D"cite"><div><br><div><d=
iv>On 2013-05-03, at 5:02 AM, Andras Holl &lt;<a 
href=3D"mailto:holl AT konkol=
y.hu" target=3D"_blank">holl AT konkoly.hu</a>&gt; 
wrote:</div><br><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite">





<div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff">Though this be madness, yet there is 
method in it.=
 I think that could be said on Elsevier&#39;s OA
<br>policy, because of two reasons. Firstly, it quite effectively hinders 
O=
A. Secondly, however badly
<br>constructed this OA policy is, one can see that from a 
publisher&#39;s =
perspective, mandates like the</div></blockquote><blockquote 
type=3D"cite">=
<div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff">NIH mandate are threatening. As a side 
effect, oth=
er mandates - which would cover only a tiny</div>
</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div 
bgcolor=3D"#ffffff">fraction of=
 the articles, and does not designate a single target repository are also a=
ffected,</div></blockquote><blockquote 
type=3D"cite"><div bgcolor=3D"#fffff=
f">regardless that these hardly affect any publishers&#39; 
profits.=A0</div=
>
</blockquote></div><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:1=
3px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">Andras,</div><div 
style=3D"margi=
n:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)"><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">
You are right that the pseudo-legal hedging is a pain.</div><div 
style=3D"m=
argin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35);min-height:1=
5px"><br></div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;co=
lor:rgb(35,35,35)">
But in point of fact, Elsevier is still just as Green on paper as Springer =
is,</div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rg=
b(35,35,35)">once one realizes that one can ignore all their 
hedging.</div>
<div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,3=
5);min-height:15px"><br></div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-=
family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">It is clear that Elsevier wants to 
hold o=
nto the good PR it gains them to be</div>
<div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,3=
5)">perceived as &quot;Green.&quot; That&#39;s why they 
have not, in fact, =
revoked their</div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Aria=
l;color:rgb(35,35,35)">
policy since it was adopted <a 
href=3D"http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/harnad/=
Hypermail/Amsci/index.html#msg3771" 
target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(18,85,204)">in 2004</span></a>. They have=A0a terrible 
image problem,=
=A0</div>
<div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,3=
5)">on all fronts, and this is their only positive 
face.</div><div style=3D=
"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35);min-height=
:15px">
<br></div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:r=
gb(35,35,35)">But it&#39;s not just psychology or strategy: 
<i>The Elsevier=
 policy really does</i></div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-f=
amily:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">
<i>mean that all Elsevier authors retain their right to provide Green 
OA,</=
i></div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb=
(35,35,35)"><i>unembargoed.=A0</i></div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:=
13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35);min-height:15px">
<br></div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:r=
gb(35,35,35)">Yes, it&#39;s a nuisance that Elsevier hedges this 
with pseud=
o-legal FUD,</div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial=
;color:rgb(35,35,35)">
but our job is to make it clear to authors, institutions and funders that</=
div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,=
35,35)">the Elsevier policy does, indeed, formally allow immediate, 
unembar=
goed</div>
<div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,3=
5)">OA, exactly as Springer policy does, and that the Elsevier hedging 
is=
=A0</div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rg=
b(35,35,35)">
empty and=A0can be=A0completely ignored.</div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font=
-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35);min-height:15px"><br></div=
><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,=
35)">
The real problem here is not Elsevier&#39;s double talk: It is <i>the 
gratu=
itous</i></div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;co=
lor:rgb(35,35,35)"><i>boost that the credibility of 
Elsevier&#39;s hedging =
has received from the</i></div>
<div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,3=
5)"><i>breath-takingly fatuous and counterproductive Finch/RCUK 
policy</i> =
and its</div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;colo=
r:rgb(35,35,35)">
&quot;flow-charts&quot; (which Elsevier has eagerly included in its 
rights=
=A0</div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rg=
b(35,35,35)">documentation).</div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;f=
ont-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35);min-height:15px">
<br></div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:r=
gb(35,35,35)">For Elsevier has now got a new &quot;positive 
face&quot; that=
 it can use for PR:</div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-famil=
y:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">
Elsevier is fully 
&quot;<b>RCUK-compliant</b>.&quot;</div><div 
style=3D"mar=
gin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35);min-height:15p=
x"><br></div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;colo=
r:rgb(35,35,35)">
Please add this to the growing list of the perverse effects of Finch/RCUK..=
.</div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(=
35,35,35);min-height:15px"><br></div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13p=
x;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">
But rest assured that (1) the RCUK&#39;s own forced back-pedalling, 
grudgin=
gly</div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rg=
b(35,35,35)">admitting that Green is just as RCUK-compliant as Gold, 
togeth=
er with</div>
<div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,3=
5)">(2) HEFCE/RCUK&#39;s timely proposal to mandate 
immediate-deposit as th=
e</div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(=
35,35,35)">
precondition for submitting a paper for REF 2020 undoes most of 
the</div><d=
iv 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)=
">damage done by the Finch Report.</div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:=
13px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35);min-height:15px">
<br></div><div 
style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial;color:r=
gb(35,35,35)">Stevan</div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</s=
pan><br>
<span>GOAL mailing list</span><br><span><a 
href=3D"mailto:GOAL AT eprints.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">GOAL AT 
eprints.org</a></span><br><span><a 
href=3D"http://m=
ailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal" 
target=3D"_blank">http://mail=
man.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</a></span><br>
</div></blockquote></div><br>______________________________________________=
_<br>
GOAL mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:GOAL AT eprints.org">GOAL AT 
eprints.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal" 
target=3D"=
_blank">http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br 
clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- 
<br>Michael =
Eisen, Ph.D.<br>Investigator, Howard Hughes Medical 
Institute<br>Associate =
Professor, Department of Molecular and Cell Biology<br>University of 
Califo=
rnia, Berkeley
</div>

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[BOAI] Re: [GOAL] Re: My last post on the Cherubim/Seraphim issue (promise!)

From: brentier AT ulg.ac.be
Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 17:53:12 +0200 (CEST)


Threading: [BOAI] Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its Authors from amsciforum AT gmail.com
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