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[BOAI] Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate

From: Stevan Harnad <amsciforum AT gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:16:43 -0400


Threading:      • This Message
             [BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from thien AT unimelb.edu.au
             [BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from amsciforum AT gmail.com
             [BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk
             [GOAL] Re: [BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from thien AT unimelb.edu.au
             [BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from thien AT unimelb.edu.au
             [BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from holl AT konkoly.hu
             [BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from david.prosser AT rluk.ac.uk
             [GOAL] Re: [BOAI] Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk
             [BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk
             [BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk

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Full Text: http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/994-.html

*Executive Summary:* *The proposed HEFCE/REF Open Access [OA]
mandate<http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/hefce/content/news/news/2013/open_acce=
ss_letter.pdf>
--
that in order to be eligible for REF, the peer-reviewed final draft of all
journal articles must be deposited in the author=92s institutional reposito=
ry
immediately upon publication, with embargoes applicable only to the date at
which the article must be made OA =96 is excellent, and provides exactly th=
e
sort of complement required by the RCUK OA mandate. It ensures that authors
deposit immediately and institutionally and it recruits their institutions
to monitor and ensure compliance.
      For journal articles, no individual or disciplinary exceptions or
exemptions to the immediate-deposit are needed, but embargo length can be
adapted to the discipline or even to exceptional individual cases.
      Embargo length is even more important for open data, and should be
carefully and flexibly adapted to the needs not only of disciplines and
individuals, but of each individual research project.
      Requiring monograph OA if the author does not wish to provide it is
not reasonable, but perhaps many or most monograph authors would not mind
depositing their texts as Closed Access.*

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Full Text:=A0<a 
href=3D"http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/9=
94-.html">http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/994-.html</a><d=
iv><br><div><strong 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Exec=
utive Summary:</strong><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verda=
na,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,2=
55)">=A0</span><em 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,h=
elvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">The=
=A0<a 
href=3D"http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/hefce/content/news/news/2013/ope=
n_access_letter.pdf" style=3D"color:rgb(0,51,102)">proposed 
HEFCE/REF Open =
Access [OA] mandate</a>=A0-- that in order to be eligible for REF, the 
peer=
-reviewed final draft of all journal articles must be deposited in the auth=
or=92s institutional repository immediately upon publication, with embargoe=
s applicable only to the date at which the article must be made OA =96 is e=
xcellent, and=A0<em>provides exactly the sort of complement required by 
the=
 RCUK OA mandate</em>. It ensures that authors deposit immediately and 
inst=
itutionally and it recruits their institutions to monitor and ensure compli=
ance.<br>
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0For journal articles, no individual or disciplinary excep=
tions or exemptions to the immediate-deposit are needed, but embargo length=
 can be adapted to the discipline or even to exceptional individual cases.<=
br>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Embargo length is even more important for open data, a=
nd should be carefully and flexibly adapted to the needs not only of discip=
lines and individuals, but of each individual research project.<br>
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Requiring monograph OA if the author does not wish to pro=
vide it is not reasonable, but perhaps many or most monograph authors would=
 not mind depositing their texts as Closed 
Access.</em></div></div>

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[BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate

From: Nick Thieberger <thien AT unimelb.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:13:30 +1100


Threading: [BOAI] Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message

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But what if the article is in an OA journal that would like to have the hit
count for downloads from its site? Is there scope for the mandate to cover
only non-OA journal articles perhaps?

Nick Thieberger
Editor
Language Documentation & Conservation Journal
http://www.nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/


On 14 March 2013 11:16, Stevan Harnad <amsciforum AT gmail.com> wrote:

> Full Text: http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/994-.html
>
> *Executive Summary:* *The proposed HEFCE/REF Open Access [OA] 
mandate<htt=
p://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/hefce/content/news/news/2013/open_access_letter.p=
df> --
> that in order to be eligible for REF, the peer-reviewed final draft of al=
l
> journal articles must be deposited in the author=E2=80=99s institutional =
repository
> immediately upon publication, with embargoes applicable only to the date =
at
> which the article must be made OA =E2=80=93 is excellent, and provides ex=
actly
> the sort of complement required by the RCUK OA mandate. It ensures that
> authors deposit immediately and institutionally and it recruits their
> institutions to monitor and ensure compliance.
>       For journal articles, no individual or disciplinary exceptions or
> exemptions to the immediate-deposit are needed, but embargo length can be
> adapted to the discipline or even to exceptional individual cases.
>       Embargo length is even more important for open data, and should be
> carefully and flexibly adapted to the needs not only of disciplines and
> individuals, but of each individual research project.
>       Requiring monograph OA if the author does not wish to provide it is
> not reasonable, but perhaps many or most monograph authors would not mind
> depositing their texts as Closed Access.*
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:
> http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">But what if the article is in an OA journal 
that would lik=
e to have the hit count for downloads from its site? Is there scope for the=
 mandate to cover only non-OA journal articles 
perhaps?<div><br></div><div =
style>

<div>Nick 
Thieberger</div><div>Editor</div><div>Language 
Documentation &amp=
; Conservation Journal</div><div><a 
href=3D"http://www.nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc=
/">http://www.nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/</a></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra">

<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 March 2013 
11:16, Stevan Harnad <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:amsciforum AT 
gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">amsciforum AT gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> 
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc 
solid;padding-left:=
1ex">

Full Text:=C2=A0<a 
href=3D"http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archive=
s/994-.html" 
target=3D"_blank">http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/arc=
hives/994-.html</a><div><br><div><strong 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-=
size:13px;font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Executive 
Summary=
:</strong><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-size:13px;font-family:ver=
dana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><em 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,=
51);font-size:13px;font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">The=C2=
=A0<a 
href=3D"http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/hefce/content/news/news/2013/ope=
n_access_letter.pdf" style=3D"color:rgb(0,51,102)" 
target=3D"_blank">propos=
ed HEFCE/REF Open Access [OA] mandate</a>=C2=A0-- that in order to be 
eligi=
ble for REF, the peer-reviewed final draft of all journal articles must be =
deposited in the author=E2=80=99s institutional repository immediately upon=
 publication, with embargoes applicable only to the date at which the artic=
le must be made OA =E2=80=93 is excellent, and=C2=A0<em>provides exactly 
th=
e sort of complement required by the RCUK OA mandate</em>. It ensures 
that =
authors deposit immediately and institutionally and it recruits their insti=
tutions to monitor and ensure compliance.<br>


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0For journal articles, no individual or =
disciplinary exceptions or exemptions to the immediate-deposit are needed, =
but embargo length can be adapted to the discipline or even to exceptional =
individual cases.<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Embargo length 
is =
even more important for open data, and should be carefully and flexibly ada=
pted to the needs not only of disciplines and individuals, but of each indi=
vidual research project.<br>


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Requiring monograph OA if the author do=
es not wish to provide it is not reasonable, but perhaps many or most monog=
raph authors would not mind depositing their texts as Closed 
Access.</em></=
div></div>
<br><br>
--<br>
To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f" 
target=3D"_blank"=
>http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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[BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate

From: Stevan Harnad <amsciforum AT gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:40:12 -0400


Threading: [BOAI] Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message

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On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 5:12 AM, Andy Powell <andy.powell AT 
eduserv.org.uk>wr=
ote:


> Supposing this Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate leads to a
> situation where we achieve 100% immediate deposit of the final
> peer-reviewed draft of journal articles to an institutional repository bu=
t
> where we also see a =91publisher norm=92 emerging of a 12-month embargo p=
eriod?
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Firstly, is that an unrealistic expectation of where this policy might ge=
t
> us?****
>
> ** **
>
> If so, would we consider this situation to have significantly advanced th=
e
> OA cause?****
>
> ** **
>
> I agree that the separation of =91immediate deposit=92 from =91embargo pe=
riod=92
> is important but I also worry that doing so effectively becomes a way for
> publishers to stifle progress towards true OA but setting lengthy embargo
> periods? Further, there seems to be nothing in this policy that mitigates
> against this happening?****
>
> ** **
>
> Or am I misunderstanding the situation?
>

Please read the comments, not just the Executive Summary, as they
explicitly answer your question.

Meanwhile, here is the answer to your question, put in a different way, in
response to: *RCUK fails to end =91green=92 embargo
confusion*<http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/rcuk-fails-to-end-gre=
en-embargo-confusion/2002538.article>
" *THE* 14 March 2013:

*
KEYSTROKE MANDATES
*

What a mess! With publishers eagerly pawing at the Golden Door, and RCUK
hopelessly waffling at Green embargo limits and their enforcement.

But relief is on the way! HEFCE has meanwhile quietly and gently proposed a
solution that will moot all this relentless cupidity and stupidity.

HEFCE has proposed to mandate that in order to be eligible for the Research
Excellence Framework
(REF)<http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/hefce/content/news/news/2013/open_access=
_letter.pdf>,
the final, peer-reviewed drafts of all papers published as of 2014 will
have to be deposited in the author's institutional
repository<http://roar.eprints.org/> immediately
upon publication: no delays, no embargoes, no exceptions -- irrespective of
whether the paper is published in a Gold OA journal or a subscription
journal, and irrespective of the allowable length of the embargo on making
the deposit OA: The deposit itself must be immediate.

This has the immense benefit that while the haggling continues about how
much will be paid for Gold OA and how long Green OA may be embargoed, all
papers will be faithfully deposited -- and deposited in institutional
repositories, which means that all UK universities will thereby be
recruited, as of 2014, to monitor and ensure that the deposits are made,
and made immediately. (Institutions have an excellent track record for
making sure that everything necessary for REF is done, and done reliably,
because a lot of money and prestige is at stake for them.)

And one of the ingenious features of the proposed HEFCE/REF Green OA
mandate is the stipulation that deposit may not be delayed: Authors cannot
wait till just before the next REF, six years later, to do it. If the
deposit was not immediate, the paper is ineligible for REF.

And, most brilliant stroke of all, this ensures that it is not just the 4
papers that are ultimately chosen for submission to REF that are deposited
immediately -- for that choice is always a retrospective one, made after
looking over the past 6 years' work, to pick the four best papers. Rarely
will this be known in advance. So the safest policy will be to deposit all
papers immediately, just in case.

This is precisely the compliance assurance mechanism the RCUK mandate so
desperately needs in order to succeed, but the RCUK policy-makers have not
yet had the wit to conceive and adopt. Well, HEFCE/REF have done it for
them, bless them.

But immediate-deposit is not immediate-OA you say? Indeed it is not. It
does, however, overcome OA's most formidable hurdle, which is getting all
those papers into the institutional repositories, and right away:
keystrokes. It is just those keystrokes that have stood between the
research world and OA for over over two decades now.

Once the institutional repositories are reliably being filled to 100%, does
anyone with the slightest imagination doubt what will follow, as nature
(and human nature) takes its course?

First, the repositories will facilitate sending reprints to those who
request a single copy for research purposes, with one click each. Sending
reprints is not OA; researchers have been doing it for a half century. But
they used to have to do it by reading *Current Contents* or scanning
journals' contents lists, mailing reprint requests, and then waiting and
hoping that authors would take the time and trouble and expense to mail
them a reprint, as requested (and many did). But now the whole transaction
is just one click each, and almost immediate, if the papers have been
deposited and both parties are at the wheel.

But that's still just Almost-OA. Once immediate-deposit is mandated,
however, about 60% of those deposits can be made immediately OA, because
about 60% of journals already endorse immediate, unembargoed Green OA.
(RCUK has already succeeded is dragging down that figure to somewhat closer
to 50/50 with its perverse preference for Gold, inspiring hybrid Gold
publishers to offer Gold and increase Green embargo lengths to try to force
UK authors to pick paid Gold over cost-free Green).

Now that's about half immediate-OA plus half Almost-OA to tide over
researcher needs during the embargo. But does anyone have any doubt about
what will happen next? As OA and Almost-OA grow, and the research community
tastes more and more of what it's like to have half immediate-OA and half
Almost-OA, all the disciplines that have not yet had the sense to do it
will begin to do what almost 100% of physicists have already been doing for
20 years now without so much as a moment's hesitation or a "by your 
leave":

That last remaining keystroke, once a paper is written, revised, accepted
and deposited -- the keystroke that makes the paper OA -- will be done
sooner and sooner, more and more, until the embargoes with which publishers
are trying to hold research hostage will all die their natural and
well-deserved deaths as the research community learns to do the obvious,
optimal and inevitable, in the online era.

(Nor will peer-reviewed journal publishing die, as publishers keep warning
menacingly: It will simply convert to Gold OA -- but only after the
pressure from Green OA has forced journals to phase out all obsolete
products and services and their costs: that means phasing out the print
version and the online version, and offloading all access-providing and
archiving onto the global network of Green OA institutional repositories.
Then, instead of double-paying for Gold OA, as Finch folly and RCUK
recklessness would have us do -- subscriptions plus Gold OA fees --
post-Green Gold OA will just be a fee for the peer review service, at a
fair, affordable and sustainable price, paid for out of a fraction of
institutions' annual savings from subscription cancellations instead of out
of scarce research funds, over and above subscriptions, as now. Pre-Green
Gold is Fool's Gold: Post-Green Gold is Fair Gold.)

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On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 5:12 AM, Andy Powell <span 
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:andy.powell AT eduserv.org.uk" 
target=3D"_blank">andy.powell AT eduser=
v.org.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div 
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 
.8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" 
vlink=3D"purple">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span 
style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Supposi=
ng this Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate leads to a situation w=
here we achieve 100% immediate deposit of the final peer-reviewed draft of =
journal
 articles to an institutional repository but where we also see a =91publish=
er norm=92 emerging of a 12-month embargo 
period?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span 
style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u>=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span 
style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Firstly=
, is that an unrealistic expectation of where this policy might get 
us?<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span 
style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u>=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span 
style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">If so, =
would we consider this situation to have significantly advanced the OA caus=
e?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span 
style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u>=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span 
style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I agree=
 that the separation of =91immediate deposit=92 from =91embargo period=92 i=
s important but I also worry that doing so effectively becomes a way for pu=
blishers to
 stifle progress towards true OA but setting lengthy embargo periods? Furth=
er, there seems to be nothing in this policy that mitigates against this ha=
ppening?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span 
style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u>=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span 
style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Or am I=
 misunderstanding the 
situation?</span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>Please read the comments, not just the Executive Summary, as 
they ex=
plicitly answer your question.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Meanwhile, here is the answer to 
your question, put in =
a different way, in response to:<span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-fam=
ily:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">=
=A0</span><a 
href=3D"http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/rcuk-fails-=
to-end-green-embargo-confusion/2002538.article" 
style=3D"color:rgb(0,51,102=
);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,2=
55,255)"><strong><em>RCUK fails to end =91green=92 embargo 
confusion</em></=
strong></a><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">&quot;=A0</span><span =
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><em>THE</em>=A014 March 
2013</span><spa=
n 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">:</span></div>
<div 
class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><b><div 
style=3D"text-align:center"><b=
>KEYSTROKE MANDATES</b></div></b></div><div 
class=3D"gmail_quote"><br style=
=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);f=
ont-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,=
255)">What a mess! With publishers eagerly pawing at the Golden Door, 
and R=
CUK hopelessly waffling at Green embargo limits and their enforcement.</spa=
n><br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);=
font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255)">But relief is on the way! HEFCE has meanwhile quietly and gently 
pro=
posed a solution that will moot all this relentless cupidity and stupidity.=
</span><br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica=
,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);=
font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255)">HEFCE has proposed to mandate that in order to be eligible for 
the=
=A0</span><a 
href=3D"http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/hefce/content/news/news/2=
013/open_access_letter.pdf" 
style=3D"color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:verdan=
a,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Research Ex=
cellence Framework (REF)</a><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:=
verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">, 
the=
 final, peer-reviewed drafts of all papers published as of 2014 will have t=
o be deposited in the author&#39;s=A0</span><a 
href=3D"http://roar.eprints.=
org/" 
style=3D"color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">institutional 
repository</a><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">=A0immediately upon publication: 
no de=
lays, no embargoes, no exceptions -- irrespective of whether the paper is p=
ublished in a Gold OA journal or a subscription journal, and irrespective o=
f the allowable length of the embargo on making the deposit OA: The deposit=
 itself must be immediate.</span><br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-fami=
ly:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);=
font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255)">This has the immense benefit that while the haggling continues 
about=
 how much will be paid for Gold OA and how long Green OA may be embargoed, =
all papers will be faithfully deposited -- and deposited in institutional r=
epositories, which means that all UK universities will thereby be recruited=
, as of 2014, to monitor and ensure that the deposits are made, and made im=
mediately. (Institutions have an excellent track record for making sure tha=
t everything necessary for REF is done, and done reliably, because a lot of=
 money and prestige is at stake for them.)=A0</span><br 
style=3D"color:rgb(=
51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:r=
gb(255,255,255)">
<br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);=
font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255)">And one of the ingenious features of the proposed HEFCE/REF 
Green OA=
 mandate is the stipulation that deposit may not be delayed: Authors cannot=
 wait till just before the next REF, six years later, to do it. If the depo=
sit was not immediate, the paper is ineligible for REF.=A0</span><br 
style=
=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;back=
ground-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);=
font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255)">And, most brilliant stroke of all, this ensures that it is not 
just =
the 4 papers that are ultimately chosen for submission to REF that are depo=
sited immediately -- for that choice is always a retrospective one, made af=
ter looking over the past 6 years&#39; work, to pick the four best papers. 
=
Rarely will this be known in advance. So the safest policy will be to depos=
it all papers immediately, just in case.</span><br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51=
,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(25=
5,255,255)">
<br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);=
font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255)">This is precisely the compliance assurance mechanism the RCUK 
mandat=
e so desperately needs in order to succeed, but the RCUK policy-makers have=
 not yet had the wit to conceive and adopt. Well, HEFCE/REF have done it fo=
r them, bless them.</span><br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verd=
ana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);=
font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255)">But immediate-deposit is not immediate-OA you say? Indeed it is 
not.=
 It does, however, overcome OA&#39;s most formidable hurdle, which is 
getti=
ng all those papers into the institutional repositories, and right away: ke=
ystrokes. It is just those keystrokes that have stood between the research =
world and OA for over over two decades now.</span><br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51=
,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb=
(255,255,255)">
<br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);=
font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255)">Once the institutional repositories are reliably being filled to 
100=
%, does anyone with the slightest imagination doubt what will follow, as na=
ture (and human nature) takes its course?=A0</span><br 
style=3D"color:rgb(5=
1,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rg=
b(255,255,255)">
<br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);=
font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255)">First, the repositories will facilitate sending reprints to 
those wh=
o request a single copy for research purposes, with one click each. Sending=
 reprints is not OA; researchers have been doing it for a half century. But=
 they used to have to do it by reading=A0</span><em 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,5=
1,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(2=
55,255,255)">Current Contents</em><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-f=
amily:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"=
>=A0or scanning journals&#39; contents lists, mailing reprint requests, 
and=
 then waiting and hoping that authors would take the time and trouble and e=
xpense to mail them a reprint, as requested (and many did). But now the who=
le transaction is just one click each, and almost immediate, if the papers =
have been deposited and both parties are at the wheel.</span><br 
style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;backgroun=
d-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);=
font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255)">But that&#39;s still just Almost-OA. Once immediate-deposit 
is manda=
ted, however, about 60% of those deposits can be made immediately OA, becau=
se about 60% of journals already endorse immediate, unembargoed Green OA. (=
RCUK has already succeeded is dragging down that figure to somewhat closer =
to 50/50 with its perverse preference for Gold, inspiring hybrid Gold publi=
shers to offer Gold and increase Green embargo lengths to try to force UK a=
uthors to pick paid Gold over cost-free Green).=A0</span><br 
style=3D"color=
:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-co=
lor:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);=
font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255)">Now that&#39;s about half immediate-OA plus half Almost-OA 
to tide o=
ver researcher needs during the embargo. But does anyone have any doubt abo=
ut what will happen next? As OA and Almost-OA grow, and the research commun=
ity tastes more and more of what it&#39;s like to have half immediate-OA 
an=
d half Almost-OA, all the disciplines that have not yet had the sense to do=
 it will begin to do what almost 100% of physicists have already been doing=
 for 20 years now without so much as a moment&#39;s hesitation or a 
&quot;b=
y your leave&quot;:=A0</span><br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:v=
erdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);=
font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255)">That last remaining keystroke, once a paper is written, revised, 
acc=
epted and deposited -- the keystroke that makes the paper OA -- will be don=
e sooner and sooner, more and more, until the embargoes with which publishe=
rs are trying to hold research hostage will all die their natural and well-=
deserved deaths as the research community learns to do the obvious, optimal=
 and inevitable, in the online era.</span><br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);=
font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255)">
<br 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><div><span 
style=3D"background-colo=
r:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif">(Nor will peer-reviewed journal publishing die, as 
publishers k=
eep warning menacingly: It will simply convert to Gold OA -- but only after=
 the pressure from Green OA has forced journals to phase out all obsolete p=
roducts and services and their costs: that means phasing out the print vers=
ion and the online version, and offloading all access-providing and archivi=
ng onto the global network of Green OA institutional repositories. Then, in=
stead of double-paying for Gold OA, as Finch folly and RCUK recklessness wo=
uld have us do -- subscriptions plus Gold OA fees -- post-Green Gold OA wil=
l just be a fee for the peer review service, at a fair, affordable and sust=
ainable price, paid for out of a fraction of institutions&#39; annual 
savin=
gs from subscription cancellations instead of out of scarce research funds,=
 over and above subscriptions, as now. Pre-Green Gold is Fool&#39;s Gold: 
P=
ost-Green Gold is Fair Gold.)</span>=A0</div>
</div><br><div><br></div>

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[BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate

From: Stevan Harnad <harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:00:49 -0400


Threading: [BOAI] Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message



On 2013-03-14, at 1:13 AM, Nick Thieberger <thien AT unimelb.edu.au> 
wrote:

> But what if the article is in an OA journal that would like to have the 
hit count for
> downloads from its site? Is there scope for the mandate to cover only 
non-OA
> journal articles perhaps?

That would be an exceedingly bad solution, for authors, for their institutions
for their research and for OA.

And institutions would lose a simple, natural, powerful and uniform way to 
monitor
mandate compliance by their authors.

And what's more important: hit/download counts for authors, for their own 
articles,
and for their institutions, or hit/download counts for publishers' sites?

But in any case there's a simple (though silly) compromise:

All articles (whether subscription or Gold, emargoed or not) must be 
immediately
deposited in the author's institutional repository.

Where the author either wishes to comply with a non-OA publisher's embargo
on Green OA, or with a Gold-OA publisher's desire to have hit/download counts
for its site, access to the deposit need not be made OA (until the embargo
elapses or until the author tires of accommodating publishers' importunate
nonsense).

Stevan Harnad

> 
> Nick Thieberger
> Editor
> Language Documentation & Conservation Journal
> http://www.nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/
> 
> 
> On 14 March 2013 11:16, Stevan Harnad <amsciforum AT gmail.com> 
wrote:
> Full Text: http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/994-.html
> 
> Executive Summary: The proposed HEFCE/REF Open Access [OA] mandate -- that 
in order to be eligible for REF, the peer-reviewed final draft of all journal 
articles must be deposited in the authorís institutional repository immediately 
upon publication, with embargoes applicable only to the date at which the 
article must be made OA Ė is excellent, and provides exactly the sort of 
complement required by the RCUK OA mandate. It ensures that authors deposit 
immediately and institutionally and it recruits their institutions to monitor 
and ensure compliance.
>       For journal articles, no individual or disciplinary exceptions or 
exemptions to the immediate-deposit are needed, but embargo length can be 
adapted to the discipline or even to exceptional individual cases.
>       Embargo length is even more important for open data, and should be 
carefully and flexibly adapted to the needs not only of disciplines and 
individuals, but of each individual research project.
>       Requiring monograph OA if the author does not wish to provide it is 
not reasonable, but perhaps many or most monograph authors would not mind 
depositing their texts as Closed Access.
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:
> http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f
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[GOAL] Re: [BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate

From: Nick Thieberger <thien AT unimelb.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 17:47:27 +1100


Threading: [BOAI] Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message

--000e0ce03ed46f04a504d7f104c9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Steven,

Our example is of a small OA journal, now in its seventh year. We have
pioneered publishing primary language material to accompany linguistic
articles and locate all our collection in a DSpace repository with handles.
Our funding is scraped together and covers student GAships for copy-editing
and page layout of articles. Our reach is excellent and can always be
improved, but we use download statistics to emulate an impact factor. In
your model, author download statistics will be split between the OA
journal's site and the home institution's repository. My University
repository allows us to have a full citation that points to the OA article
in the originating journal's repository and that would seem to be a good
outcome for both your mandating institution and the struggling OA journal
that needs to justify itself to its funders. I'm sorry that you think that
an OA journal that is doing its best to keep producing free OA output is
acting as a publisher with a 'publishers' importunate nonsense'.

Nick Thieberger


On 15 March 2013 08:00, Stevan Harnad <harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:

>
> On 2013-03-14, at 1:13 AM, Nick Thieberger <thien AT unimelb.edu.au> 
wrote:
>
> But what if the article is in an OA journal that would like to have the
> hit count for
>
> downloads from its site? Is there scope for the mandate to cover only
> non-OA
>
> journal articles perhaps?
>
>
> That would be an exceedingly bad solution, for authors, for their
> institutions
> for their research and for OA.
>
> And institutions would lose a simple, natural, powerful and uniform way t=
o
> monitor
> mandate compliance by their authors.
>
> And what's more important: hit/download counts for authors, for their own
> articles,
> and for their institutions, or hit/download counts for publishers' sites?
>
> But in any case there's a simple (though silly) compromise:
>
> All articles (whether subscription or Gold, emargoed or not) must be
> immediately
> deposited in the author's institutional repository.
>
> Where the author either wishes to comply with a non-OA publisher's embarg=
o
> on Green OA, or with a Gold-OA publisher's desire to have hit/download
> counts
> for its site, access to the deposit need not be made OA (until the embarg=
o
> elapses or until the author tires of accommodating publishers' importunat=
e
> nonsense).
>
> Stevan Harnad
>
>
> Nick Thieberger
> Editor
> Language Documentation & Conservation Journal
> http://www.nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/
>
>
> On 14 March 2013 11:16, Stevan Harnad <amsciforum AT gmail.com> 
wrote:
>
>> Full Text: http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/994-.html
>>
>> *Executive Summary:* *The proposed HEFCE/REF Open Access [OA] 
mandate<ht=
tp://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/hefce/content/news/news/2013/open_access_letter.=
pdf> --
>> that in order to be eligible for REF, the peer-reviewed final draft of 
a=
ll
>> journal articles must be deposited in the author=E2=80=99s 
institutional=
 repository
>> immediately upon publication, with embargoes applicable only to the 
date=
 at
>> which the article must be made OA =E2=80=93 is excellent, and provides 
e=
xactly
>> the sort of complement required by the RCUK OA mandate. It ensures 
that
>> authors deposit immediately and institutionally and it recruits their
>> institutions to monitor and ensure compliance.
>>       For journal articles, no individual or disciplinary exceptions 
or
>> exemptions to the immediate-deposit are needed, but embargo length can 
b=
e
>> adapted to the discipline or even to exceptional individual cases.
>>       Embargo length is even more important for open data, and should 
be
>> carefully and flexibly adapted to the needs not only of disciplines 
and
>> individuals, but of each individual research project.
>>       Requiring monograph OA if the author does not wish to provide it 
i=
s
>> not reasonable, but perhaps many or most monograph authors would not 
min=
d
>> depositing their texts as Closed Access.*
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:
>> http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f
>>
>>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:
> http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f
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>
>
>
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--000e0ce03ed46f04a504d7f104c9
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div 
dir=3D"ltr">Steven,<div><br></div><div>Our 
example is of a small OA jo=
urnal, now in its seventh year. We have pioneered publishing primary langua=
ge material to accompany linguistic articles and locate all our collection =
in a DSpace repository with handles. Our funding is scraped together and co=
vers student GAships for copy-editing and page layout of articles. Our reac=
h is excellent and can always be improved, but we use download statistics t=
o emulate an impact factor. In your model, author download statistics will =
be split between the OA journal&#39;s site and the home 
institution&#39;s r=
epository. My University repository allows us to have a full citation that =
points to the OA article in the originating journal&#39;s repository and 
th=
at would seem to be a good outcome for both your mandating institution and =
the struggling OA journal that needs to justify itself to its funders. 
I&#3=
9;m sorry that you think that an OA journal that is doing its best to keep =
producing free OA output is acting as a publisher with a &#39;<span 
style=
=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">publishers&#39; importunat=
e=C2=A0</span><span 
style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">n=
onsense&#39;.</span><div>

<span 
style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></di=
v><div style><span 
style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Ni=
ck Thieberger</span></div></div></div><div 
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">

On 15 March 2013 08:00, Stevan Harnad <span 
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">harnad AT 
ecs.soton.ac.uk</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" 
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div 
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div>On 
2013-03-14, at 1:13 AM=
, Nick Thieberger &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thien AT 
unimelb.edu.au" target=3D"_bl=
ank">thien AT unimelb.edu.au</a>&gt; 
wrote:</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
><div dir=3D"ltr">

But what if the article is in an OA journal that would like to have the hit=
 count for</div></blockquote><blockquote 
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">dow=
nloads from its site? Is there scope for the mandate to cover only non-OA</=
div>

</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div 
dir=3D"ltr">journal articles pe=
rhaps?</div></blockquote><div><br></div>That 
would be an exceedingly bad so=
lution, for authors, for their institutions</div><div>for their 
research an=
d for OA.</div>

<div><br></div><div>And institutions would lose a 
simple, natural, powerful=
 and uniform way to monitor</div><div>mandate compliance by their 
authors.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>And what&#39;s more 
important: hit/download counts=
 for authors, for their own articles,</div>

<div>and for their institutions, or=C2=A0hit/download counts 
for=C2=A0publi=
shers&#39; 
sites?</div><div><br></div><div>But in any case 
there&#39;s a si=
mple (though silly) 
compromise:</div><div><br></div><div>All articles 
(whet=
her subscription or Gold, emargoed or not) must be immediately</div>

<div>deposited in the author&#39;s institutional 
repository.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Where the author either wishes to comply with a non-OA 
publisher=
&#39;s embargo</div><div>on Green OA, or with a Gold-OA 
publisher&#39;s des=
ire to have=C2=A0hit/download counts</div>

<div>for its site, access to the deposit need not be made OA (until the 
emb=
argo</div><div>elapses or until the author tires of accommodating 
publisher=
s&#39; 
importunate</div><div>nonsense).</div><div><br></div><div>Stevan Har=
nad</div>

<div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div 
dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>

<div>Nick 
Thieberger</div><div>Editor</div><div>Language 
Documentation &amp=
; Conservation Journal</div><div><a 
href=3D"http://www.nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc=
/" 
target=3D"_blank">http://www.nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/</a></div></div></div>

<div class=3D"gmail_extra">

<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 March 2013 
11:16, Stevan Harnad <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:amsciforum AT 
gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">amsciforum AT gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> 
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc 
solid;padding-left:=
1ex">



Full Text:=C2=A0<a 
href=3D"http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archive=
s/994-.html" 
target=3D"_blank">http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/arc=
hives/994-.html</a><div><br><div><strong 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-=
size:13px;font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Executive 
Summary=
:</strong><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-size:13px;font-family:ver=
dana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><em 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,=
51);font-size:13px;font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">The=C2=
=A0<a 
href=3D"http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/hefce/content/news/news/2013/ope=
n_access_letter.pdf" style=3D"color:rgb(0,51,102)" 
target=3D"_blank">propos=
ed HEFCE/REF Open Access [OA] mandate</a>=C2=A0-- that in order to be 
eligi=
ble for REF, the peer-reviewed final draft of all journal articles must be =
deposited in the author=E2=80=99s institutional repository immediately upon=
 publication, with embargoes applicable only to the date at which the artic=
le must be made OA =E2=80=93 is excellent, and=C2=A0<em>provides exactly 
th=
e sort of complement required by the RCUK OA mandate</em>. It ensures 
that =
authors deposit immediately and institutionally and it recruits their insti=
tutions to monitor and ensure compliance.<br>




=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0For journal articles, no individual or =
disciplinary exceptions or exemptions to the immediate-deposit are needed, =
but embargo length can be adapted to the discipline or even to exceptional =
individual cases.<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Embargo length 
is =
even more important for open data, and should be carefully and flexibly ada=
pted to the needs not only of disciplines and individuals, but of each indi=
vidual research project.<br>




=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Requiring monograph OA if the author do=
es not wish to provide it is not reasonable, but perhaps many or most monog=
raph authors would not mind depositing their texts as Closed 
Access.</em></=
div></div>
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[BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate

From: Nick Thieberger <thien AT unimelb.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 17:47:27 +1100


Threading: [BOAI] Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from amsciforum AT gmail.com
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Steven,

Our example is of a small OA journal, now in its seventh year. We have
pioneered publishing primary language material to accompany linguistic
articles and locate all our collection in a DSpace repository with handles.
Our funding is scraped together and covers student GAships for copy-editing
and page layout of articles. Our reach is excellent and can always be
improved, but we use download statistics to emulate an impact factor. In
your model, author download statistics will be split between the OA
journal's site and the home institution's repository. My University
repository allows us to have a full citation that points to the OA article
in the originating journal's repository and that would seem to be a good
outcome for both your mandating institution and the struggling OA journal
that needs to justify itself to its funders. I'm sorry that you think that
an OA journal that is doing its best to keep producing free OA output is
acting as a publisher with a 'publishers' importunate nonsense'.

Nick Thieberger


On 15 March 2013 08:00, Stevan Harnad <harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:

>
> On 2013-03-14, at 1:13 AM, Nick Thieberger <thien AT unimelb.edu.au> 
wrote:
>
> But what if the article is in an OA journal that would like to have the
> hit count for
>
> downloads from its site? Is there scope for the mandate to cover only
> non-OA
>
> journal articles perhaps?
>
>
> That would be an exceedingly bad solution, for authors, for their
> institutions
> for their research and for OA.
>
> And institutions would lose a simple, natural, powerful and uniform way t=
o
> monitor
> mandate compliance by their authors.
>
> And what's more important: hit/download counts for authors, for their own
> articles,
> and for their institutions, or hit/download counts for publishers' sites?
>
> But in any case there's a simple (though silly) compromise:
>
> All articles (whether subscription or Gold, emargoed or not) must be
> immediately
> deposited in the author's institutional repository.
>
> Where the author either wishes to comply with a non-OA publisher's embarg=
o
> on Green OA, or with a Gold-OA publisher's desire to have hit/download
> counts
> for its site, access to the deposit need not be made OA (until the embarg=
o
> elapses or until the author tires of accommodating publishers' importunat=
e
> nonsense).
>
> Stevan Harnad
>
>
> Nick Thieberger
> Editor
> Language Documentation & Conservation Journal
> http://www.nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/
>
>
> On 14 March 2013 11:16, Stevan Harnad <amsciforum AT gmail.com> 
wrote:
>
>> Full Text: http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/994-.html
>>
>> *Executive Summary:* *The proposed HEFCE/REF Open Access [OA] 
mandate<ht=
tp://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/hefce/content/news/news/2013/open_access_letter.=
pdf> --
>> that in order to be eligible for REF, the peer-reviewed final draft of 
a=
ll
>> journal articles must be deposited in the author=E2=80=99s 
institutional=
 repository
>> immediately upon publication, with embargoes applicable only to the 
date=
 at
>> which the article must be made OA =E2=80=93 is excellent, and provides 
e=
xactly
>> the sort of complement required by the RCUK OA mandate. It ensures 
that
>> authors deposit immediately and institutionally and it recruits their
>> institutions to monitor and ensure compliance.
>>       For journal articles, no individual or disciplinary exceptions 
or
>> exemptions to the immediate-deposit are needed, but embargo length can 
b=
e
>> adapted to the discipline or even to exceptional individual cases.
>>       Embargo length is even more important for open data, and should 
be
>> carefully and flexibly adapted to the needs not only of disciplines 
and
>> individuals, but of each individual research project.
>>       Requiring monograph OA if the author does not wish to provide it 
i=
s
>> not reasonable, but perhaps many or most monograph authors would not 
min=
d
>> depositing their texts as Closed Access.*
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:
>> http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f
>>
>>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:
> http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f
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>
>
>
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<div 
dir=3D"ltr">Steven,<div><br></div><div>Our 
example is of a small OA jo=
urnal, now in its seventh year. We have pioneered publishing primary langua=
ge material to accompany linguistic articles and locate all our collection =
in a DSpace repository with handles. Our funding is scraped together and co=
vers student GAships for copy-editing and page layout of articles. Our reac=
h is excellent and can always be improved, but we use download statistics t=
o emulate an impact factor. In your model, author download statistics will =
be split between the OA journal&#39;s site and the home 
institution&#39;s r=
epository. My University repository allows us to have a full citation that =
points to the OA article in the originating journal&#39;s repository and 
th=
at would seem to be a good outcome for both your mandating institution and =
the struggling OA journal that needs to justify itself to its funders. 
I&#3=
9;m sorry that you think that an OA journal that is doing its best to keep =
producing free OA output is acting as a publisher with a &#39;<span 
style=
=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">publishers&#39; importunat=
e=C2=A0</span><span 
style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">n=
onsense&#39;.</span><div>

<span 
style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></di=
v><div style><span 
style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Ni=
ck Thieberger</span></div></div></div><div 
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">

On 15 March 2013 08:00, Stevan Harnad <span 
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">harnad AT 
ecs.soton.ac.uk</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" 
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div 
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div>On 
2013-03-14, at 1:13 AM=
, Nick Thieberger &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thien AT 
unimelb.edu.au" target=3D"_bl=
ank">thien AT unimelb.edu.au</a>&gt; 
wrote:</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
><div dir=3D"ltr">

But what if the article is in an OA journal that would like to have the hit=
 count for</div></blockquote><blockquote 
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">dow=
nloads from its site? Is there scope for the mandate to cover only non-OA</=
div>

</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div 
dir=3D"ltr">journal articles pe=
rhaps?</div></blockquote><div><br></div>That 
would be an exceedingly bad so=
lution, for authors, for their institutions</div><div>for their 
research an=
d for OA.</div>

<div><br></div><div>And institutions would lose a 
simple, natural, powerful=
 and uniform way to monitor</div><div>mandate compliance by their 
authors.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>And what&#39;s more 
important: hit/download counts=
 for authors, for their own articles,</div>

<div>and for their institutions, or=C2=A0hit/download counts 
for=C2=A0publi=
shers&#39; 
sites?</div><div><br></div><div>But in any case 
there&#39;s a si=
mple (though silly) 
compromise:</div><div><br></div><div>All articles 
(whet=
her subscription or Gold, emargoed or not) must be immediately</div>

<div>deposited in the author&#39;s institutional 
repository.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Where the author either wishes to comply with a non-OA 
publisher=
&#39;s embargo</div><div>on Green OA, or with a Gold-OA 
publisher&#39;s des=
ire to have=C2=A0hit/download counts</div>

<div>for its site, access to the deposit need not be made OA (until the 
emb=
argo</div><div>elapses or until the author tires of accommodating 
publisher=
s&#39; 
importunate</div><div>nonsense).</div><div><br></div><div>Stevan Har=
nad</div>

<div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div 
dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>

<div>Nick 
Thieberger</div><div>Editor</div><div>Language 
Documentation &amp=
; Conservation Journal</div><div><a 
href=3D"http://www.nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc=
/" 
target=3D"_blank">http://www.nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/</a></div></div></div>

<div class=3D"gmail_extra">

<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 March 2013 
11:16, Stevan Harnad <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:amsciforum AT 
gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">amsciforum AT gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> 
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc 
solid;padding-left:=
1ex">



Full Text:=C2=A0<a 
href=3D"http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archive=
s/994-.html" 
target=3D"_blank">http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/arc=
hives/994-.html</a><div><br><div><strong 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-=
size:13px;font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Executive 
Summary=
:</strong><span 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-size:13px;font-family:ver=
dana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><em 
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,=
51);font-size:13px;font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">The=C2=
=A0<a 
href=3D"http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/hefce/content/news/news/2013/ope=
n_access_letter.pdf" style=3D"color:rgb(0,51,102)" 
target=3D"_blank">propos=
ed HEFCE/REF Open Access [OA] mandate</a>=C2=A0-- that in order to be 
eligi=
ble for REF, the peer-reviewed final draft of all journal articles must be =
deposited in the author=E2=80=99s institutional repository immediately upon=
 publication, with embargoes applicable only to the date at which the artic=
le must be made OA =E2=80=93 is excellent, and=C2=A0<em>provides exactly 
th=
e sort of complement required by the RCUK OA mandate</em>. It ensures 
that =
authors deposit immediately and institutionally and it recruits their insti=
tutions to monitor and ensure compliance.<br>




=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0For journal articles, no individual or =
disciplinary exceptions or exemptions to the immediate-deposit are needed, =
but embargo length can be adapted to the discipline or even to exceptional =
individual cases.<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Embargo length 
is =
even more important for open data, and should be carefully and flexibly ada=
pted to the needs not only of disciplines and individuals, but of each indi=
vidual research project.<br>




=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Requiring monograph OA if the author do=
es not wish to provide it is not reasonable, but perhaps many or most monog=
raph authors would not mind depositing their texts as Closed 
Access.</em></=
div></div>
<br><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font 
color=3D"#888888"><br>
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#888888"><br></font></span></div><span 
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[BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate

From: "Andras Holl" <holl AT konkoly.hu>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:05:33 +0100


Threading: [BOAI] Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message


Nick,

Small, independent, innovative OA journals do not get the credit they would 
deserve -
I am partial, because I have my "own" journal - and often left out of 
considerations.
They are not green, but not "professional" gold either. They might 
not get IFs,
in spite of their (measurable) quality, success and impact. They are not 
represented
properly (that's what I feel) by OASPA either.

Andras Holl

On Fri, 15 Mar 2013 17:47:27 +1100, Nick Thieberger wrote
> Steven,
> 
> Our example is of a small OA journal, now in its seventh year. We have 
pioneered publishing primary language material to accompany linguistic articles 
and locate all our collection in a DSpace repository with handles. Our funding 
is scraped together and covers student GAships for copy-editing and page layout 
of articles. Our reach is excellent and can always be improved, but we use 
download statistics to emulate an impact factor. In your model, author download 
statistics will be split between the OA journal's site and the home 
institution's repository. My University repository allows us to have a full 
citation that points to the OA article in the originating journal's repository 
and that would seem to be a good outcome for both your mandating institution 
and the struggling OA journal that needs to justify itself to its funders. I'm 
sorry that you think that an OA journal that is doing its best to keep 
producing free OA output is acting as a publisher with a 'publishers' imp
 ortunate nonsense'.
> 
> 
> Nick Thieberger
> 
> On 15 March 2013 08:00, Stevan Harnad <harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2013-03-14, at 1:13 AM, Nick Thieberger <thien AT unimelb.edu.au> 
wrote:
> 
> But what if the article is in an OA journal that would like to have the 
hit count for
> downloads from its site? Is there scope for the mandate to cover only 
non-OA
> journal articles perhaps?
> 
> That would be an exceedingly bad solution, for authors, for their 
institutions
> for their research and for OA.
> 
> And institutions would lose a simple, natural, powerful and uniform way to 
monitor
> mandate compliance by their authors.
> 
> And what's more important: hit/download counts for authors, for their own 
articles,
> and for their institutions, or hit/download counts for publishers' 
sites?
> 
> But in any case there's a simple (though silly) compromise:
> 
> All articles (whether subscription or Gold, emargoed or not) must be 
immediately
> deposited in the author's institutional repository.
> 
> Where the author either wishes to comply with a non-OA publisher's embargo
> on Green OA, or with a Gold-OA publisher's desire to have hit/download 
counts
> for its site, access to the deposit need not be made OA (until the embargo
> elapses or until the author tires of accommodating publishers' importunate
> nonsense).
> 
> Stevan Harnad
> 
> 
> 
> Nick Thieberger
> Editor
> Language Documentation & Conservation Journal
> http://www.nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/
> 
> On 14 March 2013 11:16, Stevan Harnad <amsciforum AT gmail.com> 
wrote:
> Full Text: http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/994-.html
> 
> Executive Summary: The proposed HEFCE/REF Open Access [OA] mandate -- 
that in order to be eligible for REF, the peer-reviewed final draft of all 
journal articles must be deposited in the author’s institutional repository 
immediately upon publication, with embargoes applicable only to the date at 
which the article must be made OA ‚Äď is excellent, and¬†provides exactly the 
sort of complement required by the RCUK OA mandate. It ensures that authors 
deposit immediately and institutionally and it recruits their institutions to 
monitor and ensure compliance.
>       For journal articles, no individual or disciplinary exceptions 
or exemptions to the immediate-deposit are needed, but embargo length can be 
adapted to the discipline or even to exceptional individual cases.
>       Embargo length is even more important for open data, and 
should be carefully and flexibly adapted to the needs not only of disciplines 
and individuals, but of each individual research project.
>       Requiring monograph OA if the author does not wish to provide 
it is not reasonable, but perhaps many or most monograph authors would not mind 
depositing their texts as Closed Access.
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:
> http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f
> 
> 
> 
> --      
> To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:
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> 
> 
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Andras Holl / Holl Andras                e-mail: holl AT konkoly.hu 
Konkoly Observatory / MTA CsFK CsI       Tel.: +36 1 3919368 Fax: +36 1 
2754668 
IT manager / Szamitastechn. rendszervez. Mail: H1525 POBox 67, Budapest, 
Hungary 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

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[BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate

From: David Prosser <david.prosser AT rluk.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:26:51 +0000


Threading: [BOAI] Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from amsciforum AT gmail.com
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--Apple-Mail-2-632838576
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Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=windows-1252

JISC is funding a project, PIRUS, that looks to provide a framework =
whereby usage statistics can be combined from a number of sites.  So if =
copies of an OA paper are on a centralised subject-based repository, a =
publisher's site, and a (or potentially many) university repositories =
you could get a feeling for the total usage of the paper.  Details at:

http://www.jisc.ac.uk/whatwedo/programmes/pals3/pirus.aspx

although it is a little while since I last heard an update about the =
project.  One condition is that it is based on providing =
COUNTER-compliant usage statistics and I know that this is an issue for =
some smaller publishers.

If a publisher (small or otherwise) were able to show the total usage of =
the article rather than just the usage at their own site it would, I =
hope, boost their argument for showing the value they are bringing to =
the process.

Best wishes

David



On 15 Mar 2013, at 08:05, Andras Holl wrote:

>=20
> Nick,=20
>=20
> Small, independent, innovative OA journals do not get the credit they =
would deserve -=20
> I am partial, because I have my "own" journal - and often left 
out of =
considerations.=20
> They are not green, but not "professional" gold either. They 
might not =
get IFs,=20
> in spite of their (measurable) quality, success and impact. They are =
not represented=20
> properly (that's what I feel) by OASPA either.=20
>=20
> Andras Holl=20
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, 15 Mar 2013 17:47:27 +1100, Nick Thieberger wrote=20
> > Steven,=20
> >=20
> > Our example is of a small OA journal, now in its seventh year. We =
have pioneered publishing primary language material to accompany =
linguistic articles and locate all our collection in a DSpace repository =
with handles. Our funding is scraped together and covers student GAships =
for copy-editing and page layout of articles. Our reach is excellent and =
can always be improved, but we use download statistics to emulate an =
impact factor. In your model, author download statistics will be split =
between the OA journal's site and the home institution's repository. My =
University repository allows us to have a full citation that points to =
the OA article in the originating journal's repository and that would =
seem to be a good outcome for both your mandating institution and the =
struggling OA journal that needs to justify itself to its funders. I'm =
sorry that you think that an OA journal that is doing its best to keep =
producing free OA output is acting as a publisher with a 'publishers' =
importunate nonsense'.=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > Nick Thieberger=20
> >=20
> > On 15 March 2013 08:00, Stevan Harnad <harnad AT 
ecs.soton.ac.uk> =
wrote:=20
> >
>=20
> >=20
> > On 2013-03-14, at 1:13 AM, Nick Thieberger <thien AT 
unimelb.edu.au> =
wrote:=20
> >
>>=20
>>=20
>> > But what if the article is in an OA journal that would like to 
have =
the hit count for
>>=20
>> > downloads from its site? Is there scope for the mandate to cover 
=
only non-OA
>>=20
>> > journal articles perhaps?
>=20
> >=20
> > That would be an exceedingly bad solution, for authors, for their =
institutions=20
> > for their research and for OA.=20
> >=20
> > And institutions would lose a simple, natural, powerful and uniform =
way to monitor=20
> > mandate compliance by their authors.=20
> >=20
> > And what's more important: hit/download counts for authors, for =
their own articles,=20
> > and for their institutions, or hit/download counts for publishers' =
sites?=20
> >=20
> > But in any case there's a simple (though silly) compromise:=20
> >=20
> > All articles (whether subscription or Gold, emargoed or not) must be 
=
immediately=20
> > deposited in the author's institutional repository.=20
> >=20
> > Where the author either wishes to comply with a non-OA publisher's =
embargo=20
> > on Green OA, or with a Gold-OA publisher's desire to have =
hit/download counts=20
> > for its site, access to the deposit need not be made OA (until the =
embargo=20
> > elapses or until the author tires of accommodating publishers' =
importunate=20
> > nonsense).=20
> >=20
> > Stevan Harnad=20
> >=20
> >
>>=20
>>=20
>> >=20
>> > Nick Thieberger=20
>> > Editor=20
>> > Language Documentation & Conservation Journal=20
>> > http://www.nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/=20
>> >=20
>> > On 14 March 2013 11:16, Stevan Harnad <amsciforum AT 
gmail.com> wrote:=20=

>> >
>> Full Text: =
http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/994-.html=20
>> >=20
>> > Executive Summary: The proposed HEFCE/REF Open Access [OA] 
mandate =
-- that in order to be eligible for REF, the peer-reviewed final draft =
of all journal articles must be deposited in the author=92s =
institutional repository immediately upon publication, with embargoes =
applicable only to the date at which the article must be made OA =96 is =
excellent, and provides exactly the sort of complement required by the =
RCUK OA mandate. It ensures that authors deposit immediately and =
institutionally and it recruits their institutions to monitor and ensure =
compliance.=20
>> >       For journal articles, no individual or disciplinary =
exceptions or exemptions to the immediate-deposit are needed, but =
embargo length can be adapted to the discipline or even to exceptional =
individual cases.=20
>> >       Embargo length is even more important for open data, and =
should be carefully and flexibly adapted to the needs not only of =
disciplines and individuals, but of each individual research project.=20
>> >       Requiring monograph OA if the author does not wish to 
provide =
it is not reasonable, but perhaps many or most monograph authors would =
not mind depositing their texts as Closed Access.=20
>> >=20
>> > --=20
>> > To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:=20
>> > http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f=20
>> >=20
>> >
>>=20
>> >=20
>> > --      =20
>> > To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:=20
>> > http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f=20
>> >
>=20
> >=20
> > --=20
> > To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:=20
> > http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f=20
> >=20
> >
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------=20
> Andras Holl / Holl Andras                 e-mail: holl AT konkoly.hu=20
> Konkoly Observatory / MTA CsFK CsI       Tel.: +36 1 3919368 Fax: +36 =
1 2754668=20
> IT manager / Szamitastechn. rendszervez. Mail: H1525 POBox 67, =
Budapest, Hungary=20
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------=20
>=20
> <ATT00001..txt>


--Apple-Mail-2-632838576
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=windows-1252

<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: 
break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">JISC 
=
is funding a project, PIRUS, that looks to provide a framework whereby =
usage statistics can be combined from a number of sites. &nbsp;So if =
copies of an OA paper are on a centralised subject-based repository, a =
publisher's site, and a (or potentially many) university repositories =
you could get a feeling for the total usage of the paper. &nbsp;Details =
at:<div><br></div><div><a =
href=3D"http://www.jisc.ac.uk/whatwedo/programmes/pals3/pirus.aspx">http:/=
/www.jisc.ac.uk/whatwedo/programmes/pals3/pirus.aspx</a></div><div><br></d=
iv><div>although it is a little while since I last heard an update 
about =
the project. &nbsp;One condition is that it is based on providing =
COUNTER-compliant usage statistics and I know that this is an issue for =
some smaller 
publishers.</div><div><br></div><div>If a 
publisher (small =
or otherwise) were able to show the total usage of the article rather =
than just the usage at their own site it would, I hope, boost their =
argument for showing the value they are bringing to the =
process.</div><div><br></div><div>Best =
wishes</div><div><br></div><div>David</div><div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; 
color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; 
color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span 
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><br><br></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></span>
</div>
<br><div><div>On 15 Mar 2013, at 08:05, Andras Holl 
wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote 
type=3D"cite">

<meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" 
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type">
<meta content=3D"OPENWEBMAIL" name=3D"GENERATOR">

<div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff">

<font size=3D"2"><b>
<br></b>Nick,
<br>
<br>Small, independent, innovative OA journals do not get the credit =
they would deserve -
<br>I am partial, because I have my "own" journal - and often 
left out =
of considerations.
<br>They are not green, but not "professional" gold either. 
They might =
not get IFs,
<br>in spite of their (measurable) quality, success and impact. They are 
=
not represented
<br>properly (that's what I feel) by OASPA either.
<br>
<br>Andras Holl<b>
<br>
<br>
<br>On Fri, 15 Mar 2013 17:47:27 +1100, Nick Thieberger wrote</b>
<br>&gt;=20
Steven,
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Our example is of a small OA journal, now in its=20
seventh year. We have pioneered publishing primary language material to=20=

accompany linguistic articles and locate all our collection in a DSpace=20=

repository with handles. Our funding is scraped together and covers =
student=20
GAships for copy-editing and page layout of articles. Our reach is =
excellent and=20
can always be improved, but we use download statistics to emulate an =
impact=20
factor. In your model, author download statistics will be split between =
the OA=20
journal's site and the home institution's repository. My University=20
repository allows us to have a full citation that points to the OA =
article in=20
the originating journal's repository and that would seem to be a good=20
outcome for both your mandating institution and the struggling OA =
journal that=20
needs to justify itself to its funders. I'm sorry that you think that an =
OA=20
journal that is doing its best to keep producing free OA output is =
acting as a=20
publisher with a '<span style=3D"font-family: arial,sans-serif; =
font-size: 13px;">publishers'=20
importunate&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-family: 
arial,sans-serif; =
font-size: 13px;">nonsense'.</span>
<br>&gt;=20

<span style=3D"font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 
13px;">
<br>&gt;=20
</span>
<br>&gt; <span style=3D"font-family: arial,sans-serif; 
font-size: =
13px;">Nick=20
Thieberger</span>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20

On 15 March 2013 08:00, Stevan Harnad <span 
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"mailto:harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk">harnad AT 
ecs.soton.ac.uk</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:
<br>&gt; <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; 
border-left: =
1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" 
class=3D"gmail_quote">

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; On 2013-03-14, at 1:13 AM, Nick Thieberger &lt;<a =
target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"mailto:thien AT unimelb.edu.au">thien AT 
unimelb.edu.au</a>&gt;=20
wrote:
<br>&gt; <blockquote type=3D"cite">
<br>&gt;=20

But what if the article is in an OA journal that would like to have the =
hit=20
count for</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">
<br>&gt; downloads from its site?=20
Is there scope for the mandate to cover only=20
non-OA

</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">
<br>&gt; journal articles=20
perhaps?</blockquote>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; That would be an exceedingly bad=20
solution, for authors, for their institutions
<br>&gt; for their research and for=20
OA.

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; And institutions would lose a simple, natural, powerful 
and=20
uniform way to monitor
<br>&gt; mandate compliance by their authors.
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; And what's more important: hit/download counts for authors, 
for=20=

their own=20
articles,

<br>&gt; and for their institutions, or&nbsp;hit/download 
counts=20
for&nbsp;publishers' sites?
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; But in any case there's a=20
simple (though silly) compromise:
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; All articles (whether=20
subscription or Gold, emargoed or not) must be=20
immediately

<br>&gt; deposited in the author's institutional repository.
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; Where the author either wishes to comply with a non-OA =
publisher's=20
embargo
<br>&gt; on Green OA, or with a Gold-OA publisher's desire to=20
have&nbsp;hit/download=20
counts

<br>&gt; for its site, access to the deposit need not be made OA 
(until =
the=20
embargo
<br>&gt; elapses or until the author tires of accommodating=20
publishers' importunate
<br>&gt; nonsense).
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Stevan=20
Harnad

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <blockquote type=3D"cite">
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Nick=20
Thieberger
<br>&gt; Editor
<br>&gt; Language Documentation &amp; Conservation=20
Journal
<br>&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"http://www.nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/">http://www.nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/=
</a>

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; On 14 March 2013 11:16, Stevan Harnad <span 
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"mailto:amsciforum AT gmail.com">amsciforum AT 
gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:
<br>&gt; <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; 
border-left: =
1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" 
class=3D"gmail_quote">

Full Text:&nbsp;<a target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/994-.html">http:=
//openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/994-.html</a>
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; <strong style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-size: 
13px; =
font-family: verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Executive=20
Summary:</strong><span style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); 
font-size: 13px; =
font-family: 
verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span><em =
style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-size: 13px; font-family: =
verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">The&nbsp;<a 
target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 51, 102);" =
href=3D"http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/hefce/content/news/news/2013/open_acc=
ess_letter.pdf">proposed HEFCE/REF Open Access [OA]=20
mandate</a>&nbsp;-- that in order to be eligible for REF, the =
peer-reviewed final=20
draft of all journal articles must be deposited in the author=92s =
institutional=20
repository immediately upon publication, with embargoes applicable only =
to the=20
date at which the article must be made OA =96 is excellent, =
and&nbsp;<em>provides=20
exactly the sort of complement required by the RCUK OA mandate</em>. It =
ensures=20
that authors deposit immediately and institutionally and it recruits =
their=20
institutions to monitor and ensure compliance.
<br>&gt;=20

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;For journal 
articles, no individual =
or disciplinary exceptions or=20
exemptions to the immediate-deposit are needed, but embargo length can =
be=20
adapted to the discipline or even to exceptional individual cases.
<br>&gt;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Embargo length is 
even more =
important for open data, and should be=20
carefully and flexibly adapted to the needs not only of disciplines and=20=

individuals, but of each individual research project.
<br>&gt;=20

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Requiring monograph 
OA if the author =
does not wish to provide it is=20
not reasonable, but perhaps many or most monograph authors would not =
mind=20
depositing their texts as Closed=20
Access.</em>

<br>&gt; <span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font 
color=3D"#888888">
<br>&gt;=20

--
<br>&gt;=20

To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:
<br>&gt;=20

<a target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f">http://www.soros.or=
g/openaccess/forum.shtml?f</a>
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt; </font></span></blockquote><span 
class=3D"HOEnZb"><font =
color=3D"#888888">
<br>&gt; </font></span><span 
class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">

<br>&gt; -- &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<br>&gt; To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form=20
on this page:
<br>&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f">http://www.soros.or=
g/openaccess/forum.shtml?f</a>
<br>&gt;=20
</font></span></blockquote>

<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20

--
<br>&gt;=20

To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:
<br>&gt;=20

<a target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f">http://www.soros.or=
g/openaccess/forum.shtml?f</a>
<br>&gt;=20

<br>&gt;=20
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
=
<br>----------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------=20

<br>
Andras Holl / Holl Andras &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;
e-mail: <a href=3D"mailto:holl AT konkoly.hu">holl AT 
konkoly.hu</a>=20

<br>
Konkoly Observatory / MTA CsFK CsI &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Tel.: +36 1 
=
3919368 Fax:=20
+36 1 2754668=20

<br>
IT manager / Szamitastechn. rendszervez. Mail: H1525 POBox 67, Budapest, =
Hungary=20

<br>
=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------=20

<br>

<br>
</font>
</div>


=
<span>&lt;ATT00001..txt&gt;</span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></ht=
ml>=

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[GOAL] Re: [BOAI] Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate

From: Stevan Harnad <harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:16:53 -0400


Threading: [BOAI] Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message


It is importunate for a publisher to importune institutions or funders not to 
mandate
immediate deposit in the author's institutional repository, whether or not the
publisher is Gold, just as it is importunate for a publisher to importune 
institutions
or funders not to mandate making the immediate-deposit immediately OA.

Both are cases of subordinating the needs of research and researchers
to the needs of publishers: The tail trying to wag the dog.

As Les Carr's posting has indicated, there are software means of integrating
dowload counts at multiple sites. That's certainly preferable to compromising
the growth of worldwide OA in the interests of Gold OA start-up journals
struggling to make ends meet, by weakening their mandate-compliance
mechanisms.

The best prospect of relief and sustainability for struggling Gold OA journals 
is to allow
effective Green OA self-archiving mandates to generate 100% Green OA as soon as 

possible worldwide. 

Then Gold OA can be paid for out of the windfall subscription cancellation 
savings 
induced by the universal Green OA self-archiving.

Stevan Harnad

On 2013-03-15, at 2:47 AM, Nick Thieberger <thien AT unimelb.edu.au> 
wrote:

> Steven,
> 
> Our example is of a small OA journal, now in its seventh year. We have 
pioneered publishing primary language material to accompany linguistic articles 
and locate all our collection in a DSpace repository with handles. Our funding 
is scraped together and covers student GAships for copy-editing and page layout 
of articles. Our reach is excellent and can always be improved, but we use 
download statistics to emulate an impact factor. In your model, author download 
statistics will be split between the OA journal's site and the home 
institution's repository. My University repository allows us to have a full 
citation that points to the OA article in the originating journal's repository 
and that would seem to be a good outcome for both your mandating institution 
and the struggling OA journal that needs to justify itself to its funders. I'm 
sorry that you think that an OA journal that is doing its best to keep 
producing free OA output is acting as a publisher with a 'publishers' 
importunate nonsense'.
> 
> Nick Thieberger
> 
> 
> On 15 March 2013 08:00, Stevan Harnad <harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk> 
wrote:
> 
> On 2013-03-14, at 1:13 AM, Nick Thieberger <thien AT unimelb.edu.au> 
wrote:
> 
>> But what if the article is in an OA journal that would like to have 
the hit count for
>> downloads from its site? Is there scope for the mandate to cover only 
non-OA
>> journal articles perhaps?
> 
> That would be an exceedingly bad solution, for authors, for their 
institutions
> for their research and for OA.
> 
> And institutions would lose a simple, natural, powerful and uniform way to 
monitor
> mandate compliance by their authors.
> 
> And what's more important: hit/download counts for authors, for their own 
articles,
> and for their institutions, or hit/download counts for publishers' sites?
> 
> But in any case there's a simple (though silly) compromise:
> 
> All articles (whether subscription or Gold, emargoed or not) must be 
immediately
> deposited in the author's institutional repository.
> 
> Where the author either wishes to comply with a non-OA publisher's embargo
> on Green OA, or with a Gold-OA publisher's desire to have hit/download 
counts
> for its site, access to the deposit need not be made OA (until the embargo
> elapses or until the author tires of accommodating publishers' importunate
> nonsense).
> 
> Stevan Harnad
> 
>> 
>> Nick Thieberger
>> Editor
>> Language Documentation & Conservation Journal
>> http://www.nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/
>> 
>> 
>> On 14 March 2013 11:16, Stevan Harnad <amsciforum AT gmail.com> 
wrote:
>> Full Text: http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/994-.html
>> 
>> Executive Summary: The proposed HEFCE/REF Open Access [OA] mandate -- 
that in order to be eligible for REF, the peer-reviewed final draft of all 
journal articles must be deposited in the authorís institutional repository 
immediately upon publication, with embargoes applicable only to the date at 
which the article must be made OA Ė is excellent, and provides exactly the sort 
of complement required by the RCUK OA mandate. It ensures that authors deposit 
immediately and institutionally and it recruits their institutions to monitor 
and ensure compliance.
>>       For journal articles, no individual or disciplinary exceptions 
or exemptions to the immediate-deposit are needed, but embargo length can be 
adapted to the discipline or even to exceptional individual cases.
>>       Embargo length is even more important for open data, and should 
be carefully and flexibly adapted to the needs not only of disciplines and 
individuals, but of each individual research project.
>>       Requiring monograph OA if the author does not wish to provide it 
is not reasonable, but perhaps many or most monograph authors would not mind 
depositing their texts as Closed Access.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:
>> http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --      
>> To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:
>> http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:
> http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f
> 
> 
> 
> --      
> To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page:
> http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f


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[BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate

From: Stevan Harnad <harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:16:53 -0400


Threading: [BOAI] Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message


It is importunate for a publisher to importune institutions or funders not to 
mandate
immediate deposit in the author's institutional repository, whether or not the
publisher is Gold, just as it is importunate for a publisher to importune 
institutions
or funders not to mandate making the immediate-deposit immediately OA.

Both are cases of subordinating the needs of research and researchers
to the needs of publishers: The tail trying to wag the dog.

As Les Carr's posting has indicated, there are software means of integrating
dowload counts at multiple sites. That's certainly preferable to compromising
the growth of worldwide OA in the interests of Gold OA start-up journals
struggling to make ends meet, by weakening their mandate-compliance
mechanisms.

The best prospect of relief and sustainability for struggling Gold OA journals 
is to allow
effective Green OA self-archiving mandates to generate 100% Green OA as soon as 

possible worldwide. 

Then Gold OA can be paid for out of the windfall subscription cancellation 
savings 
induced by the universal Green OA self-archiving.

Stevan Harnad

On 2013-03-15, at 2:47 AM, Nick Thieberger <thien AT unimelb.edu.au> 
wrote:

> Steven,
> 
> Our example is of a small OA journal, now in its seventh year. We have 
pioneered publishing primary language material to accompany linguistic articles 
and locate all our collection in a DSpace repository with handles. Our funding 
is scraped together and covers student GAships for copy-editing and page layout 
of articles. Our reach is excellent and can always be improved, but we use 
download statistics to emulate an impact factor. In your model, author download 
statistics will be split between the OA journal's site and the home 
institution's repository. My University repository allows us to have a full 
citation that points to the OA article in the originating journal's repository 
and that would seem to be a good outcome for both your mandating institution 
and the struggling OA journal that needs to justify itself to its funders. I'm 
sorry that you think that an OA journal that is doing its best to keep 
producing free OA output is acting as a publisher with a 'publishers' 
importunate nonsense'.
> 
> Nick Thieberger
> 
> 
> On 15 March 2013 08:00, Stevan Harnad <harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk> 
wrote:
> 
> On 2013-03-14, at 1:13 AM, Nick Thieberger <thien AT unimelb.edu.au> 
wrote:
> 
>> But what if the article is in an OA journal that would like to have 
the hit count for
>> downloads from its site? Is there scope for the mandate to cover only 
non-OA
>> journal articles perhaps?
> 
> That would be an exceedingly bad solution, for authors, for their 
institutions
> for their research and for OA.
> 
> And institutions would lose a simple, natural, powerful and uniform way to 
monitor
> mandate compliance by their authors.
> 
> And what's more important: hit/download counts for authors, for their own 
articles,
> and for their institutions, or hit/download counts for publishers' sites?
> 
> But in any case there's a simple (though silly) compromise:
> 
> All articles (whether subscription or Gold, emargoed or not) must be 
immediately
> deposited in the author's institutional repository.
> 
> Where the author either wishes to comply with a non-OA publisher's embargo
> on Green OA, or with a Gold-OA publisher's desire to have hit/download 
counts
> for its site, access to the deposit need not be made OA (until the embargo
> elapses or until the author tires of accommodating publishers' importunate
> nonsense).
> 
> Stevan Harnad
> 
>> 
>> Nick Thieberger
>> Editor
>> Language Documentation & Conservation Journal
>> http://www.nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/
>> 
>> 
>> On 14 March 2013 11:16, Stevan Harnad <amsciforum AT gmail.com> 
wrote:
>> Full Text: http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/994-.html
>> 
>> Executive Summary: The proposed HEFCE/REF Open Access [OA] mandate -- 
that in order to be eligible for REF, the peer-reviewed final draft of all 
journal articles must be deposited in the authorís institutional repository 
immediately upon publication, with embargoes applicable only to the date at 
which the article must be made OA Ė is excellent, and provides exactly the sort 
of complement required by the RCUK OA mandate. It ensures that authors deposit 
immediately and institutionally and it recruits their institutions to monitor 
and ensure compliance.
>>       For journal articles, no individual or disciplinary exceptions 
or exemptions to the immediate-deposit are needed, but embargo length can be 
adapted to the discipline or even to exceptional individual cases.
>>       Embargo length is even more important for open data, and should 
be carefully and flexibly adapted to the needs not only of disciplines and 
individuals, but of each individual research project.
>>       Requiring monograph OA if the author does not wish to provide it 
is not reasonable, but perhaps many or most monograph authors would not mind 
depositing their texts as Closed Access.
>> 
>> 
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[BOAI] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate

From: Stevan Harnad <harnad AT ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 10:54:46 -0400


Threading: [BOAI] Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate from amsciforum AT gmail.com
      • This Message


An immediate-deposit mandate moots most of this discussion. Versions and rights 
need 
not be checked if the mandate simply says:

"Deposit the refereed draft immediately, and make it Closed Access."

So all this discussion is about what *else* you can do, and when.

Here's a list:

1. A sensible author will make the immediate-deposit OA immediately, just as 
physicists 
have been successfully doing for decades with no problems.

2. A cautious author will look up the publsher's embargo policy as well as the 
funder's
embargo limit, and make the immediate-deposit OA at whichever date comes first.

3. A timid author will look up the publsher's embargo policy and make the 
immediate-deposit OA at whatever date the publisher indicates.

4. A foolish author will simply make the immediate-deposit and leave it as
Closed Access (attending to reprint requests generated by the request copy 
Button
on an individual case by case basis).

The speed with which we reach 100% Green OA and beyond depends on the relative
proportion of foolish, timid, cautious and sensible authors.

But please, while we keep speculating, let us all mandate immediate-deposit.

I don't mean just:

"Deposit the refereed draft immediately, and make it Closed Access."

Improve on that in any way you like:

"and make it OA immediately"

"and make it OA immediately or after X months at the latest"

But in any case, deposit immediately!

Stevan Harnad

On 2013-03-21, at 9:40 AM, Hans PfeiffenbergAer <hans.pfeiffenberger AT 
awi.de> wrote:

> 
> Am 21.03.13 10:35, schrieb Tim Brody:
>> By comparison, taking a copy is little extra effort and the 
institution
>> can say unambiguously that they have an open access copy. 
> wrong: if somebody uploads a PDF the institution
>  
> - may have a copy if the identity of the file submitted or its equivalence 
with the version of record can be established
> 
> - may have an OA copy. But to establish that, someone at the institution 
(the library?) must  check the copyright notice in it (if any) and possibly 
consult with the authors about his/her contract with the publisher (because, 
legally, something found on the web pages of the publisher or ROMEO does not 
count), ...
> 
> 
> I just insisted on bean counting because it was done to the other side as 
well. I think this could go on indefinitely and should therefore be stopped.
> 
> Seen from a non-British perspective, the discussion has morphed from being 
about Open Access to a discussion about controlling of science. And setting up 
of mandates and policies which are the least costly to enforce. Cost to the 
admin dept., of course! Where the library, if involved in this, may morph into 
a branch of admin. 
> 
> How very German! Enjoy!
> 
> 
> best,
> 
> Hans
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GOAL mailing list
> GOAL AT eprints.org
> http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal


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