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Budapest Open Access Initiative: BOAI Forum Archive [BOAI] [Forum Home] [index] [prev] [next] [options] [help]boaiforum messages[BOAI] Re: Elsevier Still Onside of Angels on Immediate, Unembargoed Green OA Self-Archiving By Its AuthorsFrom: David Prosser <david.prosser AT rluk.ac.uk>
--Apple-Mail-4-562523874 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 I agree with Andras and I cannot see how any publisher who has a policy = along the lines of: You may make your author version freely available without embargo unless = you are mandated (by funder or institution) to do so, in which case you = may not make your author version freely available without embargo can be described as being on the side of the Angels. We may dismiss = such a policy as FUD or even claim that it is illogical and = unenforceable - as Stevan does - but we cannot possibly describe it as = angelic. David David C Prosser PhD Executive Director, RLUK Tel: +44 (0) 20 7862 8436 Mob: +44 (0) 7825 454586 www.rluk.ac.uk RLUK Twitter feed: RL_UK Director's Twitter feed: RLUK_David=20 Postal Address: Room 451, Senate House Library, Senate House, Malet = Street, London WC1E 7HU Registered Office:Maughan Library and Information Services Centre, = King's College London, Chancery Lane, London WC2A 1LR=20 Registered Company no: 2733294 Registered Charity no: 1026543 On 2 May 2013, at 08:17, Andras Holl wrote: >=20 > Dear Stevan,=20 >=20 > Regardless however right you are, Elsevier's play with words = succesfully confuses=20 > a large number of authors, who do not deposit because of this.=20 >=20 > Andras=20 >=20 > On Wed, 1 May 2013 20:24:46 -0400, Stevan Harnad wrote=20 > > On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:10 PM, BISSET J. = <james.bisset AT durham.ac.uk> wrote:=20 > >=20 > > =20 >=20 > >=20 > > =46rom our understanding of Elsevier policy this is not the case in = two instances:=20 > >=20 > > 1) if the institution requires deposit in their institutional = repository=20 > > 2) if the funder requires open access. >=20 > >=20 > > Dear James,=20 > >=20 > > Elsevier rights agreements state that authors retains the right to = make their final drafts OA immediately upon publication: no embargo.=20 > >=20 > > I will answer your more detailed questions below, but let me already ↵ = give you a simple general answer from which all the specific ones can be = deduced.=20 > >=20 > > If a contract says you have the right to do X, then it cannot go on = to stipulate that you only have the "right to exercise" your right to ↵ do = X if you are not required to exercise it. That is empty double-talk, and = can and should be completely ignored as empty. A right is a right; you = either have it or you don't.=20 > >=20 > > Moreover, Elsevier authors do not need Elsevier's permission to = deposit in their IRs any more than they need Elsevier's permission to go = to the WC! =20 > >=20 > > The only thing at issue is the right to make the deposit immediately ↵ = OA (i.e., free online). And Elsevier (like Springer, and about 60% of = all publishers) state that the author retains the right to make the = final draft OA immediately upon publication: no OA embargo.=20 > >=20 > > So all authors with any sense should go ahead and exercise that = formally endorsed right that they retain!=20 > >=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > > I have an email from Elsevier today confirming that in either of the ↵ = two cases above, immediate deposit is permitted but open access is not = permitted until [after] an embargo period...=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > > Elsevier is just playing on words here. As I said, the right to = deposit is not at issue. Elsevier does not have any say over where I put = my final draft. =20 > >=20 > > The only right at issue is the right to make the deposit immediately ↵ = OA (i.e., free online).=20 > >=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > > Additionally, Durham has reissued its mandate for self-archiving, = including a requirement that only those deposited (not necessarily open = access) can be used for consideration in promotion or probation (the = 'how' this will work us still being looked at - So this has not yet been = registered anywhere).=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > > Bravo on adopting the optimal institutional OA mandate. Soon we can = hope that the Durham mandate will be reinforced by the very same mandate = from HEFCE/REF: only articles whose final drafts were deposited in the = author's institutional repository immediately upon acceptance for = publication will be eligible for submission to the next REF (2020).=20 > >=20 > > Institutional and HEFCE immediate-deposit mandates can then mutually ↵ = reinforce one another, and institutions will be able to devise a simple = mechanism for monitoring and verifying compliance.=20 > > =20 >=20 > >=20 > > Because we now mandate deposit, Elsevier have indicated we cannot = make any publications open access until we sign an agreement with them - = which includes restricting access from immediate upon publication (as it = was without a mandate) to the embargo periods mentioned above.=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > > This is very interesting: Have you asked yourself why Elsevier is = asking for a second agreement? Isn't the author's signed agreement = enough, if it is really sufficient to accord him a right yet prevent him = from exercising that right?=20 > >=20 > > Well obviously not, because of the double-talk I just mentioned. In = an agreement with the clause=20 > >=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > > Clause C1: "You retain the right to do X"=20 >=20 > >=20 > > followed by the clause =20 > >=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > > Clause C2: "but you may not "exercise your right" to ↵ do X if you are = required to do X" >=20 > >=20 > > you are sanctioning a contradiction. Logically speaking (and = contracts must obey logic as surely as they must obey the law), this is = pretty much the same as simply saying:=20 > >=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > > Clause C1: "You may do X"=20 >=20 > >=20 > > and=20 > >=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > > Clause C2: "You may not do X." >=20 > >=20 > > With a logical contradiction, you can pretty much take your choice = and do whatever you like, because anything (and the opposite of = anything) follows from a contradiction.=20 > >=20 > > A good choice would be to read sequentially, follow Clause 1, and = simply ignore Clause 2, which just says the opposite. If challenged, = cite clause 1.=20 > >=20 > > And this is the real reason that Elsevier is not comfortable with = relying on its signed author rights agreement with its authors as = grounds for restraining them form doing what the retain the right to do = if they are required to do it. So they instead try to get a signature to = yet another agreement, from yet another party -- the university -- a = further agreement tjat would have the (failed) intended effect of the = author rights agreement: The institution must sign that it may not = require the author to exercise his right to provide immediate OA.=20 > >=20 > > Solution? Simple: The university should not sign! =20 > >=20 > > If Elsevier really thinks its author agreement has already seen to = it that mandated authors may not provide immediate OA if required by his = university, then there is no call for the university to sign a thing.=20 > >=20 > > Of course, this is not quite the way Elsevier goes about trying to = get the university to sign: It proposes a contingency, in confidential = pricing negotiations, between the subscription deal it offers the = university, and whether or not they require immediate OA.=20 > >=20 > > This would be unethical if it weren't so ludicrous.=20 > >=20 > > Of course the university should not sign away its right to mandate = immediate-deposit because of a subscription-deal contingency.=20 > >=20 > > But the solution is even simpler than that. Not only should the = university not sign any agreement with Elsevier over what it may or may = not require its researchers do, but the university should not worry too = much about embargoes; it should simply implement the "Almost OA" = email-eprint-request Button.=20 > >=20 > > That way not only will the university's immediate-deposit mandate = (with the help of the HEFCE/REF immediate-deposit mandate) ensure that = all final drafts are immediately deposited and that at least 60% of = those immediate-deposits (including all Elsevier deposits!) will be made = immediately OA. But, in addition, even the those immediate-deposits that = are from from the 40% of journals -- which (unlike Springer and Elsevier = and APS and IOP and all the other publishers who are on the Side if the = angels) try to embargo OA -- will be made "Almost OA", via the ↵ Button.=20= > >=20 > > And with the help of the eprint Button, the ID/OA mandate will go on ↵ = to make OA embargoes as ineffectual as Clause 2, once the = immediate-deposit mandate becomes universal.=20 > >=20 > > And a word about "systematicity": Systematically ↵ duplicating the = contents of a journal would mean duplicating all of its contents. But a = single institution just provides a tiny (and unsystematic) fraction of = any journal's contents.=20 > >=20 > > Globally mandated OA will be another story: But Elsevier cannot hope ↵ = to persuade all universities worldwide to desist from mandating OA! (And = it is noteworthy that Elsevier is not even trying to get research = funders to sign "agreements" not mandate OA, or to extend OA ↵ embargoes; = Elsevier's strategy there is lobbying, since they don't have the = subscription discount carrot with which it lures naive universities into = signing over their mandating rights in exchange for a better = subscription Big-Deal.=20 > >=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > > However, if Alicia is indicating this new stance is a move away from ↵ = that which I was told by Elsevier earlier today, and is still less than = clearly indicated on their web pages (which indicate an author can = comply by self-archiving, but then go on to list embargo periods which = do not meet RCUK policy) then that is great news.=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > > Alicia is just re-stating the Clause 1. Take her at her word.=20 > >=20 > > Best wishes,=20 > >=20 > > Stevan =20 > >=20 > > =20 >=20 > >=20 > > On 1 May 2013, at 14:49, "Stevan Harnad" <amsciforum AT ↵ gmail.com> = wrote:=20 > >=20 > > >>=20 >>=20 >> >=20 >> > Alicia Wise AT wisealic20h=20 >> > AT AmSciForum Stevan - Elsevier's #oa agreement with RCUK, ↵ including = gold & green options, is described here: = http://www.elsevier.com/about/publishing-guidelines/policies/funding-body-= agreements/research-councils-uk =85=20 >> >=20 >> > Stevan Harnad AT AmSciForum8h=20 >> > AT wisealic Simple Question: Is/isn't Elsevier-like ↵ Springer-still = Green on immediate, unembargoed #oa self-archiving? http://j.mp/11B5gcg = =20 >> >=20 >> > Alicia Wise AT wisealic19m=20 >> > AT AmSciForum yes, Elsevier endorses immediate self-archiving of ↵ = accepted final drafts free for all on the web immediately upon = acceptance.=20 >> >=20 >> > Stevan Harnad AT AmSciForum3m=20 >> > AT wisealic Thanks Alicia. Then Elsevier remains on Side of the ↵ = Angels & I will continue to attest to that! >=20 >=20 >=20 > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------=20 > Andras Holl / Holl Andras e-mail: holl AT konkoly.hu=20 > Konkoly Observatory / MTA CsFK CsI Tel.: +36 1 3919368 Fax: +36 = 1 2754668=20 > IT manager / Szamitastechn. rendszervez. Mail: H1525 POBox 67, = Budapest, Hungary=20 > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------=20 >=20 > <ATT00001..txt> --Apple-Mail-4-562523874 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 <html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: ↵ break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I = agree with Andras and I cannot see how any publisher who has a policy = along the lines of:<div><br></div><blockquote = class=3D"webkit-indent-blockquote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; ↵ border: = none; padding: 0px;"><div>You may make your author version freely ↵ = available without embargo unless you are mandated (by funder or = institution) to do so, in which case you may not make your author = version freely available without = embargo</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>can be described as being = on the side of the Angels. We may dismiss such a policy as FUD or = even claim that it is illogical and unenforceable - as Stevan does - but = we cannot possibly describe it as = angelic.</div><div><br></div><div>David</div><div><br><div> <span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: ↵ separate; = color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; = font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; = line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: = 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; ↵ color: = rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: = normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: = normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div = style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span ↵ class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: = Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; = text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div = style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span ↵ class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: = Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; = text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div = style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span ↵ class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: = Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; = text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; = word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div = style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span ↵ class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: = Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; = text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; = word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div = style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span ↵ class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: = Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; = text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; = word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div = style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span ↵ class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: = Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; = text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; = word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div = style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span ↵ class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: = Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; = text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; = word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div = style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">David C Prosser = PhD<br>Executive Director, RLUK<br><br>Tel: +44 (0) 20 7862 = 8436</div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: ↵ space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Mob: +44 (0) 7825 ↵ 454586<br><a = href=3D"http://www.rluk.ac.uk">www.rluk.ac.uk</a></div><div = style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br></div><div ↵ = style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">RLUK Twitter feed: = RL_UK</div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; ↵ -webkit-nbsp-mode: = space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Director's Twitter ↵ feed: = RLUK_David </div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; = "><br></div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; ↵ -webkit-nbsp-mode: = space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Postal Address: Room = 451, Senate House Library, Senate House, Malet Street, London WC1E = 7HU</div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: ↵ space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br></div><div ↵ = style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Registered Office:Maughan = Library and Information Services Centre, King's College London, = Chancery Lane, London WC2A 1LR <br>Registered ↵ Company = no: 2733294<br>Registered Charity no: = 1026543<br><br></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div><= /span></div></span></div></span></div></span></span> </div> <br><div><div>On 2 May 2013, at 08:17, Andras Holl ↵ wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote ↵ type=3D"cite"> <meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" ↵ http-equiv=3D"Content-Type"> <meta content=3D"OPENWEBMAIL" name=3D"GENERATOR"> <div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff"> <br>Dear Stevan, <br> <br>Regardless however right you are, Elsevier's play with words = succesfully confuses <br>a large number of authors, who do not deposit because of this. <br> <br>Andras <br> <br><font size=3D"2"><b>On Wed, 1 May 2013 20:24:46 ↵ -0400, Stevan Harnad = wrote</b> <br>> On Wed,=20 May 1, 2013 at 5:10 PM, BISSET J. <span ↵ dir=3D"ltr"><<a = target=3D"_blank" = href=3D"mailto:james.bisset AT durham.ac.uk">james.bisset AT ↵ durham.ac.uk</a>>= ;</span> wrote: <br>>=20 <br>>=20 <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: ↵ 1px = solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" ↵ class=3D"gmail_quote"> <br>>=20 <br>> =46rom our understanding of Elsevier policy this is not the ↵ = case in two=20 instances: <br>>=20 <br>> 1) if the institution requires deposit in their ↵ institutional=20= repository <br>> 2) if the funder requires open access.</blockquote> <br>>=20 <br>>=20 Dear James, <br>>=20 <br>> Elsevier rights agreements state that authors=20 retains the right to make their final drafts OA immediately upon = publication: no=20 embargo. <br>>=20 <br>> I will answer your more detailed questions below, but let ↵ me=20 already give you a simple general answer from which all the specific = ones can be=20 deduced. <br>>=20 <br>> If a contract says <i>you have the right to ↵ do X</i>,=20 then it cannot go on to stipulate that you only have the "<i>right ↵ to=20 exercise"</i> your right to do X if you are not required to ↵ = exercise it.=20 That is <a = href=3D"http://www.google.ca/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&q=3Dharnad%20OR%= 20Harnad%20OR%20archivangelism+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&= ie=3DUTF-8&tbm=3Dblg&tbs=3Dqdr:m&num=3D100&c2coff=3D1&= safe=3Dactive#q=3Delsevier+double-talk+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.o= rg/&lr=3D&c2coff=3D1&safe=3Dactive&hl=3Den&tbm=3Dblg&a= mp;tbas=3D0&source=3Dlnt&sa=3DX&ei=3DVpiBUeBI08fSAc-pgaAM&= ved=3D0CBsQpwUoAA&bav=3Don.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=3Dbv.45921128,d.dmQ= &fp=3D1dc003e2610cd254&biw=3D1181&bih=3D708">empty=20 double-talk,</a> and can and should be completely ignored as = empty. A right is=20 a right; you either have it or you=20 don't. <br>>=20 <br>> Moreover, Elsevier authors do not need Elsevier's=20 permission to <i>deposit</i> in their IRs any more than they need = Elsevier's=20 permission to go to the WC! <br>>=20 <br>> The only thing at issue is <i>the=20 right to make the deposit immediately OA (i.e., free online)</i>. And = Elsevier=20 (like Springer, and about 60% of all publishers) state that the author = retains=20 the right to make the final draft OA immediately upon publication: no OA=20= embargo. <br>>=20 <br>> So all authors with any sense should go ahead and ↵ exercise=20 that formally endorsed right that they retain! <br>>=20 <br>> <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; ↵ border-left: = 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" ↵ class=3D"gmail_quote"> <br>>=20 <br>> I have an email from Elsevier today confirming that in ↵ either=20= of the two cases above, immediate deposit is permitted but open access = is not=20 permitted until [after] an embargo period... <br>> </blockquote> <br>>=20 <br>> Elsevier is just playing on words here. As I said, the right ↵ to=20= <i>deposit</i> is not at issue. Elsevier does not have any say over ↵ = where I put=20 my final draft. <br>>=20 <br>> The only right at issue is <i>the right to=20 make the deposit immediately OA (i.e., free online)</i>. <br>>=20 <br>>=20 <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid ↵ = rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" ↵ class=3D"gmail_quote"> <br>>=20 <br>> Additionally, Durham has reissued its mandate for = self-archiving,=20 including a requirement that only those deposited (not necessarily open = access)=20 can be used for consideration in promotion or probation (the 'how' this=20= will work us still being looked=20 at - So this has not yet been registered anywhere). <br>> </blockquote> <br>>=20 <br>> Bravo on adopting the optimal institutional OA mandate. Soon ↵ we = can=20 hope that the Durham mandate will be reinforced by the very same mandate = from <a = href=3D"http://www.hefce.ac.uk/whatwedo/rsrch/rinfrastruct/openaccess/">HE= FCE/REF</a>:=20 only articles whose final drafts were deposited in the author's=20 institutional repository immediately upon acceptance for publication = will be=20 eligible for submission to the next REF=20 (2020). <br>>=20 <br>> Institutional and HEFCE immediate-deposit mandates can ↵ then=20 mutually reinforce one another, and institutions will be able to devise = a <a = href=3D"http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/1004-Harnad-Foll= ow-Up-Comments-to-BIS-Select-Committee-on-Open-Access.html">simple=20 mechanism for monitoring and verifying=20 compliance</a>. <br>> <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px ↵ 0.8ex; = border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" = class=3D"gmail_quote"> <br>>=20 <br>> Because we now mandate deposit, Elsevier have indicated we = cannot make=20 any publications open access until we sign an agreement with them - = which=20 includes restricting access from immediate upon publication (as it was = without a=20 mandate) to the embargo=20 periods mentioned above. <br>> </blockquote> <br>>=20 <br>> This is very=20 interesting: Have you asked yourself <i>why</i> Elsevier is asking ↵ for a = second=20 agreement? Isn't the author's signed agreement enough, if it is really=20= sufficient to accord him a right yet prevent him from exercising that=20 right? <br>>=20 <br>> Well obviously not, because of the double-talk I just=20 mentioned. In an agreement with the clause <br>>=20 <br>> <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; ↵ border: medium = none; padding: 0px;"> <br>>=20 <br>> <b>Clause C1:</b> "<i>You ↵ retain the right to do=20 X</i>" </blockquote> <br>>=20 <br>> followed by the clause <br>>=20 <br>> <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; ↵ border: medium = none; padding: 0px;"> <br>>=20 <br>>=20 <b>Clause C2: </b>"<i>but you may not ↵ "exercise your right" to=20 do X if you are required to do X</i>"</blockquote> <br>>=20 <br>> you are=20 sanctioning a contradiction. Logically speaking (and contracts must obey = logic=20 as surely as they must obey the law), this is pretty much the same as = simply=20 saying: <br>>=20 <br>>=20 <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: medium none; = padding: 0px;"> <br>>=20 <br>> <b>Clause C1:</b> "<i>You ↵ may do=20 X</i>" </blockquote> <br>>=20 <br>> and <br>>=20 <br>> <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; ↵ border: medium = none; padding: 0px;"> <br>>=20 <br>> <b>Clause C2: </b>"<i>You=20 may not do X</i>."</blockquote> <br>>=20 <br>> With a logical=20 contradiction, you can pretty much take your choice and do whatever you = like,=20 because anything (and the opposite of anything) follows from a=20 contradiction. <br>>=20 <br>> A good choice would be to read sequentially, follow Clause ↵ 1,=20= and simply ignore Clause 2, which just says the opposite. If challenged, = cite=20 clause 1. <br>>=20 <br>> And this is the real reason that Elsevier is not=20 comfortable with relying on its signed author rights agreement with its = authors=20 as grounds for restraining them form doing what the retain the right to = do if=20 they are required to do it. So they instead try to get a signature to = yet=20 another agreement, from yet another party -- the university -- a further=20= agreement tjat would have the (failed) intended effect of the author = rights=20 agreement: <i>The institution must sign that it may not require the = author to=20 exercise his right to provide immediate=20 OA.</i> <br>>=20 <br>> Solution? Simple: The university should not sign! <br>>=20 <br>> If Elsevier really thinks its author agreement has already ↵ seen = to it=20 that mandated authors may not provide immediate OA if required by his=20 university, then there is no call for the university to sign a=20 thing. <br>>=20 <br>> Of course, this is not quite the way Elsevier goes about=20 trying to get the university to sign: It proposes a contingency, in = confidential=20 pricing negotiations, between the subscription deal it offers the = university,=20 and whether or not they require immediate=20 OA. <br>>=20 <br>> This would be unethical if it weren't so=20 ludicrous. <br>>=20 <br>> Of course the university should not sign away its=20 right to mandate immediate-deposit because of a subscription-deal=20 contingency. <br>>=20 <br>> But the solution is even simpler than that. Not only ↵ should=20 the university not sign any agreement with Elsevier over what it may or = may not=20 require its researchers do, but the university should not worry too much = about=20 embargoes; it should simply implement the "Almost OA" <a = href=3D"http://www.google.ca/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&q=3Dharnad%20OR%= 20Harnad%20OR%20archivangelism+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&= ie=3DUTF-8&tbm=3Dblg&tbs=3Dqdr:m&num=3D100&c2coff=3D1&= safe=3Dactive#q=3DButton+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&hl=3De= n&lr=3D&c2coff=3D1&safe=3Dactive&tbm=3Dblg&tbas=3D0&am= p;source=3Dlnt&sa=3DX&ei=3DHnU5UcDCFIyq0AGWhIHQAw&ved=3D0CBwQp= wUoAA&fp=3D1&biw=3D1288&bih=3D758&bav=3Don.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.= &cad=3Db&sei=3D5KGBUb2GD6Pm0gGa24HoDw">email-eprint-request=20 Button</a>. <br>>=20 <br>> That way not only will the university's immediate-deposit=20 mandate (with the help of the HEFCE/REF immediate-deposit mandate) = ensure that=20 all final drafts are immediately deposited and that at least 60% of = those=20 immediate-deposits (including all Elsevier deposits!) will be made = immediately=20 OA. But, in addition, even the those immediate-deposits that are from = from the=20 40% of journals -- which (unlike Springer and Elsevier and APS and IOP = and all=20 the other publishers who are on the Side if the angels) try to embargo = OA --=20 will be made "Almost OA", via the=20 Button. <br>>=20 <br>> And with the help of the eprint Button, the ID/OA mandate ↵ will=20= go on to make OA embargoes as ineffectual as Clause 2, once the=20 immediate-deposit mandate becomes universal. <br>>=20 <br>> And a word about=20 "systematicity": Systematically duplicating the contents of a ↵ journal=20 would mean duplicating all of its contents. But a single institution = just=20 provides a tiny (and unsystematic) fraction of any journal's=20 contents. <br>>=20 <br>> Globally mandated OA will be another story: But Elsevier=20 cannot hope to persuade all universities worldwide to desist from = mandating OA!=20 (And it is noteworthy that Elsevier is not even trying to get research = funders=20 to sign "agreements" not mandate OA, or to extend OA embargoes;=20 Elsevier's strategy there is lobbying, since they don't have the=20 subscription discount carrot with which it lures naive universities into = signing=20 over their mandating rights in exchange for a better subscription=20 Big-Deal. <br>>=20 <br>> <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; ↵ border-left: = 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" ↵ class=3D"gmail_quote"> <br>>=20 <br>> However, if Alicia is indicating this new stance is a move ↵ away = from=20 that which I was told by Elsevier earlier today, and is still less than = clearly=20 indicated on their web pages (which indicate an author can comply by=20 self-archiving, but then go on=20 to list embargo periods which do not meet RCUK policy) then that is great=20= news. <br>> </blockquote> <br>>=20 <br>> Alicia is just re-stating the=20 Clause 1. Take her at her word. <br>>=20 <br>> Best wishes, <br>>=20 <br>>=20 Stevan <br>>=20 <br>> <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px ↵ 0.8ex; = border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" = class=3D"gmail_quote"> <br>>=20 <br>>=20 On 1 May 2013, at 14:49, "Stevan Harnad" <<a ↵ target=3D"_blank" = href=3D"mailto:amsciforum AT gmail.com">amsciforum AT ↵ gmail.com</a>>=20 wrote: <br>>=20 <br>>=20 <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <br>>=20 <br>>=20 <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(153, 153, 153); = text-decoration: none;" ↵ href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic"><strong = style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Alicia ↵ Wise</strong> <span = style=3D"font-size: 12px; direction: ltr;"><s ↵ style=3D"text-decoration: = none; color: rgb(187, 187, 187);"> AT ↵ </s><b>wisealic</b></span></a><small = style=3D"font-size: 12px; color: rgb(187, 187, 187); float: right; = margin-top: 1px;"><a target=3D"_blank" ↵ style=3D"color: rgb(153, 153, = 153); text-decoration: none;" title=3D"12:35 PM -=20 30 Apr 13" = href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic/status/329287890641252352">20h</a></s= mall> <br>>=20 <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); ↵ text-decoration: = none;" dir=3D"ltr" ↵ href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum"><s = style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: rgb(128, 226, = 147);"> AT </s><b>AmSciForum</b></a>=20 Stevan -=20 Elsevier's <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); ↵ text-decoration: = none;" dir=3D"ltr" = href=3D"https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&src=3Dhash"> <s style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: rgb(128, 226, = 147);">#</s><b>oa</b></a>=20 agreement with RCUK, including gold & green options, is described = here:<a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); = text-decoration: none;" rel=3D"nofollow" dir=3D"ltr" = title=3D"http://www.elsevier.com/about/publishing-guidelines/policies/fund= ing-body-agreements/research-councils-uk" = href=3D"http://t.co/s8faOyHfEE"><span style=3D"color: ↵ rgb(44, 207, 76); = text-decoration: none; font-size: 0px; line-height: 0;"> http://www.</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); = text-decoration: ↵ none;">elsevier.com/about/publishi</span><span = style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none; font-size: 0px; = line-height: = 0;">ng-guidelines/policies/funding-body-agreements/research-councils-uk</s= pan><span style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: = none;"><span style=3D"font-size: 0px; line-height: = 0;"> </span>=85</span></a> <br>>=20 <br>> <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: ↵ rgb(153, 153, 153); = text-decoration: none;" ↵ href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum"><strong = style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Stevan ↵ Harnad</strong> <span = style=3D"font-size: 12px; direction: ltr;"><s ↵ style=3D"text-decoration: = none; color: rgb(187, 187, = 187);"> AT ↵ </s><b>AmSciForum</b></span></a><small ↵ style=3D"font-size: 12px; = color: rgb(187, 187, 187); float: right; margin-top: 1px;"><a = target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(153, 153, 153); ↵ text-decoration: = none;" title=3D"11:50 PM=20 - 30 Apr 13" = href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum/status/329457762482397185">8h</a></= small> <br>> <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: ↵ rgb(44, 207, 76); = text-decoration: none;" dir=3D"ltr" = href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic"><s ↵ style=3D"text-decoration: none; = color: rgb(128, 226, 147);"> AT ↵ </s><b>wisealic</b></a>=20 Simple=20 Question: Is/isn't Elsevier-like Springer-still Green on immediate, unembargoed = <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); ↵ text-decoration: = none;" dir=3D"ltr" = href=3D"https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&src=3Dhash"> <s style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: rgb(128, 226, = 147);">#</s><b>oa</b></a>=20 self-archiving? <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); ↵ text-decoration: = none;" rel=3D"nofollow" dir=3D"ltr" ↵ title=3D"http://j.mp/11B5gcg" = href=3D"http://t.co/Jd0DTucqng"> <span ↵ style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, = 76); text-decoration: none; font-size: 0px; line-height: = 0;">http://</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); ↵ = text-decoration: none;">j.mp/11B5gcg</span><font ↵ color=3D"#2ccf4c"><span = style=3D"font-size: 0px; line-height: ↵ 0;"></span></font><span = style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none;"><span ↵ = style=3D"font-size: 0px; line-height: ↵ 0;"> </span></span></a> <br>>=20 <br>> <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: ↵ rgb(153, 153, 153); = text-decoration: none;" ↵ href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic"><strong = style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Alicia ↵ Wise</strong> <span = style=3D"font-size: 12px; direction: ltr;"><s ↵ style=3D"text-decoration: = none; color: rgb(187, 187, 187);"> AT ↵ </s><b>wisealic</b></span></a><small = style=3D"font-size: 12px; color: rgb(187, 187, 187); float: right; = margin-top: 1px;"><a target=3D"_blank" ↵ style=3D"color: rgb(153, 153, = 153); text-decoration: none;" title=3D"8:27 AM - 1=20 May 13" = href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic/status/329587843716509696">19m</a></s= mall> <br>> <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: ↵ rgb(44, 207, 76); = text-decoration: none;" dir=3D"ltr" = href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum"><s ↵ style=3D"text-decoration: = none; color: rgb(128, 226, 147);"> AT ↵ </s><b>AmSciForum</b></a>=20 <b>yes,=20 Elsevier endorses immediate self-archiving of accepted final drafts free for all = on the=20 web immediately upon=20 acceptance.</b> <br>>=20 <br>> <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: ↵ rgb(153, 153, 153); = text-decoration: none;" ↵ href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum"><strong = style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Stevan ↵ Harnad</strong> <span = style=3D"font-size: 12px; direction: ltr;"><s ↵ style=3D"text-decoration: = none; color: rgb(187, 187, = 187);"> AT ↵ </s><b>AmSciForum</b></span></a><small ↵ style=3D"font-size: 12px; = color: rgb(187, 187, 187); float: right; margin-top: 1px;"><a = target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(153, 153, 153); ↵ text-decoration: = none;" title=3D"8:43 AM -=20 1 May 13" = href=3D"https://twitter.com/AmSciForum/status/329591992843640833">3m</a></= small> <br>> <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: ↵ rgb(44, 207, 76); = text-decoration: none;" dir=3D"ltr" = href=3D"https://twitter.com/wisealic"><s ↵ style=3D"text-decoration: none; = color: rgb(128, 226, 147);"> AT ↵ </s><b>wisealic</b></a> Thanks Alicia. Then Elsevier remains on Side of the Angels & I ↵ will=20= continue to attest to=20 that! <a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(44, 207, 76); ↵ text-decoration: = none;" dir=3D"ltr" = href=3D"https://twitter.com/search?q=3D%23oa&src=3Dhash"> </a></blockquote></blockquote> <br> <br> = <br>----------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------=20 <br> Andras Holl / Holl Andras ↵ = e-mail: <a href=3D"mailto:holl AT konkoly.hu">holl AT ↵ konkoly.hu</a>=20 <br> Konkoly Observatory / MTA CsFK CsI Tel.: +36 1 ↵ = 3919368 Fax:=20 +36 1 2754668=20 <br> IT manager / Szamitastechn. rendszervez. Mail: H1525 POBox 67, Budapest, = Hungary=20 <br> = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------=20 <br> <br> </font> </div> = <span><ATT00001..txt></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></ht= ml>= --Apple-Mail-4-562523874-- -- To unsubscribe from the BOAI Forum, use the form on this page: http://www.soros.org/openaccess/forum.shtml?f [BOAI] [Forum Home] [index] [prev] [next] [options] [help]
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